Art Isn’t Always Easy: Friendship, Parenting & Self-Definition with Kimmy Noonen

Gotta get up, get up tell the whole world you a winner, winner vision of a star with a mission in the cause what you doing, how you doing, what you doing and who you are Flex yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't work yourself if you know me then you know that I be knowing what's up. Hey, Stephanie Graham is nosy as WLPNLP Chicago 105.5 FM lumpen radio. Welcome, you guys. Happy Memorial Day weekend.It is your host, Stephanie Graham, and I'm so happy to be back here with you today with the one and only Kimmy Noonan. Kimmy, welcome.

Glad to be here.

Yes. I'm so happy that you are here. Thank you for being here.You know, one of the things that I just love about you, Kimmy, is that you also have a podcast and. Yeah. What. What made you. Let's just get right into it. What made you start? Or you know what. Or should I say you guys, Kimmy is an artist.

Start at the beginning. It's a good place to start.

Yes, Kimmy's an artist. You know. Is your work collage based? Cause I always thought it was like painting.

No. Yeah, no painting. I feel like I can't call. I don't call myself a collage artist without feeling like a poser.

Okay.

That's just something I do when I'm with my kids, hanging out kind of for fun, but, you know, but whatever. What do we. All these titles, they're all ridiculous.

Yeah. Really?

We all do all the things. Yeah. So undergrad, I did painting.

Okay.

And. And then I had an existential crisis where I wasn't sure if painting had a purpose in the world or if it was just a part of this big money market.And I was like, you know, in my 20s, and then I went to grad school, University of Chicago. Shout out, Shout out. And I did mostly time based medium performance, like delegated performance, things like that.

Ooh, what's delegated performance?

Yeah, it's a phrase that one of my professors, Tanya Briguera, who's a Cuban artist, she coined it. As far as I know, maybe she didn't, but she did for me.But it basically is like creating a set of boundaries in a space and asking other people to do something within those boundaries, giving them instruction. So I'm not the performer. I'm not doing the odd awkward performance thing, but I'm asking other people to do it. I'm delegating this to them.Oh, this is amazing. Yeah.So she did really amazing political pieces using this sort of Technique and the viewers got to experience it, but kind of like hiring actors or hiring people. So I started that in grad school. Was very helpful for me to think about things outside the box a little bit.I also lived in Logan Square and commuted to Hyde park every day on the train and didn't have a car. So I went from painting like six foot paintings to I need to be able to take my work with me on a train.So I was like computer, USB drive and sketchbooks and that's it. And. And then after I got out of school and, you know, emotionally recovered from grad school, which took like 10 years, you know, it's hard.And then I got a studio again. I found myself going back into painting.

Okay.

So it was kind of this full circle moment. So I'm kind of painting more now, but I do a lot of social practice and, you know, trying to, I don't know, make art relevant to people, you know.Cause art's kind of. Sometimes it's just stuck away in a museum or in a gallery and most folks don't know what to do with that.And I grew up, grew up as like a blue collar kid and I didn't go to those places as a kid. And I've got a lot of family that still don't.So I'm always in this kind of tension of figuring out, like, how do I make work that's accessible, that's relevant, but also still really challenges complex ideas and highlights the stuff that we're going through. So, you know, I just use a lot of different mediums.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, everybody always uses a lot of different mediums. People are always trying to make folks just do one thing.But then as I progress more in my career, it's like, that is actually not true. It's probably easier if you're like a coach, to coach somebody on one thing, but nobody does that.

That's true. And it's easier to say, I am a fill in the blank. I'm also a photographer. Like, there's no, like.And I hate that feeling of not being able to put myself into a box that's convenient for Instagram or whatever, because that looks good, but it doesn't. I don't know, maybe my brain doesn't work that way or something.

But yeah, I'm really intrigued by a delegated performance. I'm gonna look that up later. It makes me think of when you say Instagram, like the prank, the kids that are always doing pranks, like, that's.Could that be like a form of delegated performance, where they're like, making people do stuff.

Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was always something for me that was hard. Cause I was like, I'm not.I couldn't view myself as a performance artist because I was like, I'm not confrontational enough to want to, like, freak people out, you know, like out in public. And they're just like, oh, I don't know what's happening here. And I feel super uncomfortable.And some performance artists, Artists live for that stuff. But I was like, I'm Midwestern and I'm kind of friendly and I don't want to scare people.But a delegated performance was interesting because there I could create rules around it. And it was like, this is an art space. You know, this is an art space. You're coming to see art. Yeah, but it's unusual art.So, like, do you want an example of, like. So my. In my thesis project at University of Chicago, I. I had art, quote, unquote, air quotes up on the walls.I had made stuff that people could look at. And I had a solo show. And people knew they were coming to an art gallery to see art.But in the corner, kind of the real project was that I had hired a court reporter, a stenographer. So like those people that type really fast, you know, with limited number of buttons.And I had to go all the way to Indiana to find a stenographer that actually still had, like, analog machine. Cause it had gone very digital since then. And this was back in 2009, even. So I found this young woman, and she hauled her machine up to Hyde Park.She sat in the middle of the side of the gallery, kind of off to the side. And I gave her the instructions. I was like, you need to record everything that is said in this gallery for the next three hours.And obviously I know, and she knows that's impossible because it's a pretty big gallery. It's echoey. There's going to be lots of people in it. So. So she's sitting there trying to fulfill the thing that I'm paying her to do desperately.And, you know, poor thing, she looked like she was on the struggle bus. She was like, you know, sweating and like, reaching for, like, who's saying that? What are they saying over there?And every 10 minutes, this paper roll would grow off of the machine with this code on it that you couldn't understand. Every 10 minutes, one of my classmates would rip off the paper and just hang it on the wall next to her.

And.

And over the course of those three Hours. This wall went from empty to this, like, grown, huge sort of rainbow paper installation, sort of full of code that no one knew how to translate.

And stenographers have a code, right?

It's all, like, sort of really basic symbols. Yeah. It's kind of sound based. So, you know, the woman is, like, dead on her feet at the end of it. She's like, don't ever ask me.

I know.

I was like, don't ever. No, I don't like. But then.But the people who were there, who were there to, you know, look at art, actually, the sound of their voices, the sound of them thinking about the work, talking to each other, socializing, became the crown piece of the show. And they didn't even know that was gonna happen. So then sort of this idea that they became the art, but it's this invisible force that.The sounds that they're making, but it's also this disjointed conglomeration of wild sounds. It's not like a podcast where we just talk one at a time, you know?

Yeah.

And then I asked the stenographer to retranslate those back into English for me, and she sent me that digitally. And then, like, a couple months later, we had another group show as a class in the same gallery.So I had a microphone and a screen, and I had transferred these translations into basically, like, small poems.

Okay.

As she had written them. And they're chaos. It was just wild and wacky, like, disjointed stuff, and ask the people to reanimate them into a microphone.So basically, like, put this thing that we collected that was invisible back into its invisible landscape.

Oh, cool.

But it's been jostled and rearranged in the way that humans rearrange things just by living.

Yeah.

So that's an example. That was one of. That was at the very end of grad school. I was like, oh, I learned something finally. It went all the way into my brain.

But that sounds like a cool project. Would you show that again or would you?

Yeah, that's a good question. I would love to show that again, actually. You know, I never think about that. I always live in the. In the present, moving toward the future.When something's happened, I'm like, well, wash off my hands with that. And it was fun.

Yes.

But there's so much to be found in redoing things and learning from them a second time or something. Yeah.

Yeah. I love it. I feel like in my own work, I'm always bad at that, too. Like, I'm always Moving forward on the next thing.But then I had a studio visit, and they were like, no, no, no. Show that work. And so I had this one project, Golden Kids, that I showed at Boundary, and my dad was like, that's old.He's like, you still showing this? Like, you did that years ago. And I'm like, see?

Yeah. There's, like, a voice inside our heads that's like, well, if you're showing old stuff, it means you're not making new stuff.

Yeah.

As though somehow the old stuff isn't still relevant or can' re, you know, valid again in new times, you know? I know.

It's like, show the stuff all the time forever.

And we made it. Just keep. Don't put it in the closet.

Right.

I'm literally pulling stuff out of my closet right now. I'm like, spring cleaning mode. And I'm just like, oh, it's fun to look at how far I've come and how. Not far.Like, oh, this piece is similar to the piece I'm making right now. I'm still the same person.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I can't hold onto this stuff forever.

That's also like, when people ask you to put dates on work. And it's like, I don't like to do that anymore. I had another studio visit where a lady's like, oh, this is, like, older works.And I'm like, yes, But I'm showing it to you because you like portraits. So I'm showing you, like, portraits. All the portraits that I have.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So I'm like, you know what? Next time, I'm not gonna put. I'm not putting dates on there. She would only know that because I had the dates on there.

Yeah.

I didn't like that.

So I'm like, I might stop doing that too. I feel that way about my older work. I look at it and go, oh, I made that in 2022. Bu. Like, that wasn't that long ago. But that's psychologically. Yeah.That can be a good tool. I like that.

I'm like, don't. I was like, if I wouldn't have put that there, she wouldn't even comment it on. Now she thinks I haven't been doing anything, and I have.

Why do we always have to prove that we're working?

Yeah, it's a hustle. I don't like that.

I don't either.

How do we stop it?

I don't know. I think we have to stop it. Yeah, we have to.

Just, like, right now.

But it is Helpful to have other people that agree.

Yes.

Because if there's just one person out there being like, blah, blah, blah, then you feel like you're the lone weirdo, and it's just a system that works for everyone else. But if more than one person's like, no, this is crazy, Then you're like, yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe we should all stop doing this. I'm empowered.

And also, like folks with older work. It's like, some of this. A lot of people's work I haven't seen.Like, I've never seen your photography or this art project, so it would be new to me, the work you're exploring.

I like that. Let's do it.

All right.

It's a movement right now.

Listeners.

Stop. Charlie, stop putting dates on your stuff.

Yeah, well, you know, so you have been working. You've been working on your podcast, and, you know, I'm a part of this other, like, podcast collective called Feminist Podcasters Collective.And they. And I've been, like, trying. I've been, like, a part of podcasting, right. Like, getting in the podcasting world.And it made me think, like, oh, I should start an artist with podcast collective, because there's a bunch of artists with podcasts.

It's a popular thing to do. It's a little. It makes me feel sad how popular it is because I just jumped on the ship, but I'm just not gonna think about that. It's fine.We need more good content out there.

Yeah. What made you start your podcast?

Yeah, that's a good question. So the very far backstory is that I have this amazing husband who is a gift giver, and he gets me gifts, like, years before I actually want them.But he knows me so well that he sees the trajectory of where I'm going, and he's like, I have a feeling you're gonna need some really good mics and some sound balancing tools for your future.

Wow.

I know. And so he gives me these gifts, and I'm like, thanks, babe. I don't need this or want this, but okay. And then I just have it.And then because he knows me, he's like, oh, those wheels are gonna start turning. I see her, she wants to talk, she's got things to say.So he's like my number one encourager, advocate, you know, person who's on my back, just pushing me forward a little bit when I don't want to go. But then, you know, over a couple years of having these mics, not doing anything with them, you know, I was just growing.I was like, I just, I'm an external processor. I'm sitting in a studio by myself.

Yeah.

Trying to convince myself that I'm an artist. And I'm not doing a great job at it because I'm just like, constantly in an existential crisis forever.And, you know, I have two kids, so I had this big chunk of 10 years where I was making very little work because I was the primary, like, stay at home parent with them. And that's. That. That gets in your head.That's a trip, you know, because you're like, well, if I'm not making, if I'm not selling, if I'm not, fill in the blank. Am I an artist or do I have anything to say? Do I have anything to share? Is my brain mush? And at some point, finally got enough traction.My kids were a little older. I had. My studio was working again.But I couldn't get my ideas to connect in my brain because I was like, what, am I gonna stand in my studio and talk out loud, like, to myself, like, what? Like, it's just so strange. And also, even if I did do that, I wasn't. There was no way to go back and find out what those ideas were after.I'm just speaking them into the air. And so I decided to just like, I'll record it. We'll see what happens. I'll just record it.And it was like a shower idea, you know, like empowered in the shower and just decided to turn on the mics and see how they worked and start talking into them about my ideas and my, you know, the behind the scenes stuff of what I was struggling with. And then I had beautiful friends who were like, hey, I love what you're doing. Your voice is so great and you've got such things to say.Your words are the greatest. And I was like, I love you. And then they said, can I come on? Like, well, sure you want to?So then they came to my studio and we talked about what was behind our art, both of our art practices together, kind of like we're doing right now, very organic. And I found out I just loved it. I was like, oh, it gives me external processing. It gives me encouragement.

Yeah.

I connect with other artists and other people who are amazing and they have the opportunity to stay connected to each other and we build a better, more thriving arts ecosystem.

Yeah.

In one of a million ways that, you know, we're trying to do that as a community. And so that's how it started. And I'm still doing it.

Yeah, that's. That's really cool. And I'm sort of like your husband just being like, buying you mics.

He's great.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Where did he think of that, do you know? Like, he's just like, you know what? I'm gonna give me some mics.

Kind of. I mean, his love language is so much gifts, which I fail. I have failed at for, like, the almost 20 years we've been married.Just the poor thing never gets a good gift for me. Cause I'm so bad at it. But he, like, just think so much, like, what does she love and what does she need? That's really nice. Yeah.So he's done that many times.

He gave me wasabi seasoning. Remember that?

Yes.

Yes. That was so great.

He is a gift giver. It means he loves you.

Yes. That was so nice. I'm like. I'm like, making salmon. Like, you know what? Put the wasabi seasoning on here. Yes. Oh, my goodness.So, like, do you consider your podcast, like, in your work as a part of your work, or is it like a brainstorming for yourself or how do you see it?

That's a good question. I think it oscillates from day to day. If I'm in my best mind, most confident self, it's totally a part of my practice.

Yeah.

Those boxes that you have to live in, that's just. There's such a deep. Maybe we learned it in school or I don't know what.But when I get into those boxes, then I'm like, no, the podcast is a different thing, and I should have a different website or a different Instagram account. And it starts becoming this, like, marketing thing. And I'm like, how do I get more listeners? And, yeah, and then I step back and be like, what?What am I doing? I have a very small amount of time in my day in, you know, big picture too, like, limited time. Is this actually part of my practice?Like, does this echo all the other things that I'm trying to do? And sometimes it's nice to step back and be like, accidentally discover that it is a part of your practice, you know?Cause it's like, it comes out of us. It's always all this different stuff that comes out of one person. The connection point is the person.So if I love it and it's bringing me life and I'm finding it creative, then it probably is connected to the rest of it. But then my assignment to myself is I sit down and figure out how is it connected if it's a part of my practice.Which I'll just fake it till I make it and say, yes, it is. Then how. So then, you know, with me, I look back and like, oh, yeah.I have been trying to turn invisible things into something tangible and emotive my entire art career. So sound voice communication with other people is an incredibly real, tactile form of invisible, meaningful things that we can't see, but we feel.

Yeah.

So if I use that as a medium, then it makes me feel better that all this time I'm putting into the podcast isn't taking away time for my practice. It is a part of my practice.

Okay.

You know, and. But it feels different because I'm not pushing paint or, I don't know, building stuff, so. But it is. Yes, it is. It is.

Yeah, it does feel different. I wrestle with the same things, thinking like, oh, is this a business?Like, when I'm at, you know, collective meetings or I go to, like, a trade show, I'm like, why am I here? Like, am I balancing it with, like, should I be at this podcast conference? Or should I go to a photography conference or artist conference?Or, you know, but then it's like, well, this also needs to be good. You know, like, there's a skill set to that as well. Like, you want to put it together and. Because, you know, having conversations with people.One of the things that I was really interested in with starting my show was also as a way to, like, archive folks talking about their work, because I would always. I love to listen to artists speak about their work. And, you know, I might look up, you know, Kimi Noonan and not see anything.Even though I've been to your work, even I might have been to your show, I might not be able to hear how you speak. But now there is gonna be a way, like, through your own show, but also, like, through mine.So it's like, I'm always looking for, you know, where I'm talking to people, and it's like, no, you actually.I do need to have these skills because there's people who might not have podcasts or microphones, you know, and you have to bring folks in through, you know, teaching them how to work with the equipment and work with the mic and get a good recording. So it's like, no, no, no. I do actually need time.

It's. Yeah, there's a craft. There's a craftsmanship to any kind of thing we create. And I do. I spend a lot of time on my show because I want it to be good.And I feel like that's also consistent with how I feel about all the other forms I do. I'm like, I'm not so satisfied with only knowing 2 inches of how to do something. I want to know how to do it.

Yeah.

But I also learn on the job, always, like, you know, I'm like, oh, I want to make pottery. I don't know how to do that. And, you know, then you start making pottery all the time. You know, whatever. That's not an ex. That's an example.

Right.

I'm not making pottery. Don't need to start yet.

Yeah.But I feel like even to somebody listening, I feel like they can relate, where if you're doing something and you're like, this isn't what I want to necessarily be known for or, you know, focused on. I rather, you know, this work, just figuring out that balance because I have folks, you know, say, oh, Stephanie, you're working so hard.I'm like, I'm not. I haven't made, like, any real images. You know, I'm, like, playing with these ideas. But I have been putting out shows or coming here.So, yeah, I guess it is work, but it messes with my mind a little bit.

Maybe it's also kind of an artist thing. Like, I feel like we as artists are always, like, everything we do needs to represent us.

Yeah.

But, like, my husband goes to, like, an office job, and he works for a company making stuff they want him to make, and he's like, I mean, I don't. This doesn't represent me. I'm getting a paycheck for it. So there's just a totally different mentality that I think artists have.And I'm letting myself kind of like, maybe, you know, maybe I can have lots of skills and I don't have to be. It's not a brand, you know, like, everything I do doesn't have to represent me in every way.

Yeah.

Even though it kind of does. But, yeah, like, I found myself becoming. I'm an editor now. Like, I edit my shows before.I had a photography business for eight years, and I spent most of the time not taking pictures, editing pictures.

Yeah.

And I would always be like, why do I get myself into these situations? It's so boring. Why do I always edit? But then I realized I was like, you know what? Maybe I am good at this.

Yeah.

Maybe it's important. Maybe even making art requires editing.

Yeah.

You know, you have to constantly, like, pull stuff out and rearrange and figure out who your audience is and how to communicate with them. And that's kind of part of the job.But it's not, you know, it's a little bit more sexy when it's like, you know, I'm gonna make this for a gallery and it's gonna have my name on it.

You know, being an artist is sexy.

It really wants to be.

Until it's like paperwork time.

Yeah.

The admin stuff, I don't like that. No, I don't like. I do not like that at all. I do not like the marketing stuff at all. I do not like it at all.

Yeah, that's another thing I like. If I was to list what do I actually do with my actual time as a job resume thing, I'd have to put like marketing.I'd put entrepreneur on there, which. That sounds like a word that makes no sense for me.

Yeah, like we're tech bros or something, but.

Exactly. But I'm like. But I keep starting businesses. If you look at it in the traditional sense of the word, like, even being an artist is a business.

Yes, it is.

You gotta make money, you gotta pay sales tax, you gotta, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think all artists should probably have a minor in business.

Oh, by default.

I didn't. I had to learn it the hard way. But why don't they teach us how to do taxes? I know, like why.

I know they need to. But you know what?Even though I've always had that advice, like, make sure you take business classes at the community college, get an associate's degree in IT and all that. But I'm like, that does not sound fun.

It doesn't.

Nobody teaches a class.

How do you stay awake during those classes? I know enough to learn how to do it. Maybe we're just learn on the job people. Maybe that's part of the identity of an artist, is you just.You learn how to do it while you're doing it.

Right.

You know, you stay awake because you're doing it and you're panicked about doing it poorly. Like, my taxes will be beautiful.

I know. Yeah. Like I'll have like pretty flower or pretty folders and all of that. Yeah. I just have an accountant.

Oh, that's smart. Yeah, I know.

Well, I had did taxes one time, but the person I would go to, they sort of messed them up. And then with my, like with the film jobs and all that, it's always like a 1099, you know, W2. Like, it's all this different stuff.So I'm like, I'm afraid of this.

It's so scary.

It is scary. And the last tax person said that I was in school. And so I was getting all this money back until the IRS was like, hey, we don't have your school.

You're not in.

And I'm like, what school schedule? And so I had to pay all this money back.

No.

And so now I'm like, you know what? I don't care how much it's gonna cost. I just need to get, like, a legit person. But I would love to know what she's doing.

Yeah.

I should ask her if I could sit in.

But she would be like, no, no, you're paying me to do this.

I know. She's like, I am not a teacher. This is my job. Get out of here. Pay me and just get out of here.

Yeah, no, that's scary.

Yeah.

I never feel less like an adult than when I'm dealing with taxes, man.

For real.

Am I still 16 should like my dad? Then I call my husband, and I'm like, oh, I still am a kid.

Oh, yeah. Forever kid. Especially with taxes. I cannot. It's so tough. It's so tough. But they make it seem so easy.

Yeah, it is not.

No, I think that.

But I do really like the podcast. I feel like I'm giving it a hard rap. I like the podcast.

Yeah, no, of course.

It's beautiful and fun.

Yes, it is.

And at the end of the day, I want to be around people as much as possible, talking about art.

Yeah.

So it's worth all the other stuff.

You know, I love to talk about art all the time. It becomes. I was going to. There would be these studio visits. Like an open studio visit. Right.Like a curator would come in and you would share your artwork, and they would go around, and I felt like I was at the NBA game. I would just sit there with my drink and just listen to them critique these art. And I'm like, yeah, that's right.I'm like, you don't get there work at all. Come on, man.

You know, the feeling of that kind of gives me hives, though, a little bit.

Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, let's see. We have to take a break, and we will be right back.

Hello, my name is Kimmy Noonan. I'm a visual artist and mother based in Chicago, Illinois. And I'm also the host of Kimmy Natkim podcast. For the last 20 years, I've been an artist.It's an interesting career because it's a business, an identity, and kind of hard to explain to folks.Despite art being all around us all the time, I've discovered that most People have trouble knowing how to approach art and how to talk to artists about their ideas. So on kiminatkam podcast, I lead us into the lives of living artists as we talk about what they're doing, how they're doing it, and why it matters.Are you an artist looking for encouragement and ideas? Have you ever gone to an art museum and felt secret shame about not getting it?Do you want to get more comfortable talking about big ideas in approachable ways? I know I want all of these things and more, which is why I started this podcast. I really hope you'll join me.You can stream Kimmy Not Kim podcast on all platforms and follow along@kimmynotkim.com and on Instagram immynotkim. See you soon.

WLPNLPChicago 105.5 FM Lumpin Radio. This is nosy AF and we are here with Kimmy Noonan.

You can also call me Kiminatkim, which is like, oh, yes, my sort of accidental brand. Speaking of how, we don't want to have brands, but I do have one, so that's a funny story.

Okay.

It's a real quick. It's just basically, you know, my real name's Kimberly. Sure. But I was Kimmy since the day I was brought home from the hospital.It was just what they called me. And then I get to like 8, 9 years old maybe, and they're like, well, you know what, sweetie? That's just a baby name now.So you're gonna wanna start going by something else, Kim or Kimberly. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Like, how do you get to just change my name like that?So then I went through a phase where I tried out Kimberly and I tried out Kim. And I was just like, I don't like these. These don't fit me. No offense to the Kim's and Kimberlys in the world.I have many friends who are wonderful people, but it's not my name, you know? And so I came to my parents and I did a whole presentation. I was like, okay, from now on, you're gonna call me Kimmy. This is my name.And they all were like, oh, ha ha ha ha ha. You know, so cute little button. And I was like, whatever. Like, you know, that personality type. It's like, tell me I can't and I'll show you.

Yeah.

So then I was like, my goal in life is to be Grandma Kimmy. And you're all gonna rue the day that you didn't think I was gonna follow through on this.So I've you know, I've been this adult named Kimmy now for all these years and every time I introduce myself at a party or at a, you know, professional thing, it's usually like middle aged white guys insist on just oh, Kim. They just always cut it down to Kim.And it's like, how do you be a Midwesterner who's super polite and also like not very confrontational, but just be like, no, for real. Like when I tell you my name, like I want you to call me that. That's what I, it's why I said it. Right. So I didn't know how to do that.And I finally decided to make a joke out of it because that's how I make light of things. I joke stuff. So it's like no, it's like Kimmy not Kim. Like haha ba pepa. And it stuck. And then it became my website.Kiminatkim.com kinda just rolls off the tongue.

Yes.

And then Instagram and then it just kept happening. And then when I came for time for naming my podcast, I was like, I should come up with something.You know, half of the job of an artist is to title things. I can do this. And I just kept like, if I wait to title this show, I'll never make it. Cause I kept just in my head. So I was like, you know what?Working title Kimmy not Kim podcast, we'll just call it that.

I like it.

And it just never changed. So it's my fun way now of saying, please call me Kimmy, not Kim.

Yes, you're nicer than me. I would just not respond. I would be like, if you don't call me Kimmy, I'm just not going to respond to you.

I know I'm not.

I'm just all about the party not responding.

I'm so too nice for that. I'm way too polite. Yeah. So this is my passive aggressive way of not being, of being polite. Still.

I love titling things. I feel like I can't get stuff started on something unless there is a title.Even if I end up changing it before I get started, it needs to like be the container of what I, It's a helpful move forward.

Yeah, I, I, I tell people a lot like, like the ide this myth that creativity is this boundless, boundaryless, you know, thing is like no, that's so awful. Like don't give people unlimited options. You gotta give them lots of boundaries. And within those boundaries you can be so creative.

Yeah.

But if you just have a wide open sky of possibilities, it Cripples everybody, makes you incapable of doing it. So if the title is the thing that is your boundary, go for it. You know, sometimes it's medium, sometimes it's time, sometimes it's words.You know, Title. Yeah.

You know, one thing I want to ask you when you know you're a parent, Janelle, and I was talking to Bobby Meyer about this. This whole, like, artist mother. There's like a whole thing, you know.

About that's so wonderful.

So you said.

Okay, so not the artist's mother. No, being a mother is wonderful in some ways, but I mean, like, this movement toward affirming artist mothers is wonderful. Yeah.

You said 10 years. Like, so if I have a kid, I can't make work again in 10 years?

No, that's. No. So I did hear this, and I wish I could attribute it to the right person because I can't remember who said it now.It was on a podcast a long time ago, but she said, you should not expect to get any significant work done for the first three years of each of your children's lives.

Okay.

So obviously you'll still be doing stuff, probably, but your brain is just. You're just too. It's too much like you're sleep deprived and you're on the ground doing other things, you know?So the first three years of my first child's life, I was burning the candle at both ends. I was doing everything, like, working. I was an adjunct professor. I had a photography business. I was making art projects and a stay at home mom.

Wow.

So it was like during the naps and in the night and all this stuff, and it just got. It was overwhelming.

Yeah, it sounds exhausting.

It was horrible. Like, I don't know what personality, learning opportunity. But then when my youngest was four, then we had another child.So then that starts the clock again, another three years. So when you add all that up together, we had two kids. You're looking at seven years.And then just so happened that when my second was three, I enrolled her in. In, like, pre K. Right. We're like, I got three hours twice a week or something. This is gonna be great.Then the pandemic hit and shut the whole world down.

Oh, wow.

So then we were back at home living all in, you know, with each other and stuff. So then that was another, like, year to two years of just kidding. But I was actually pretty creative during that time and pretty active. But.So 10 years is an exaggeration for, like, the typical. But I would say that that advice is accurate.

Yeah.

Three years for each Kid.

Okay.

You're just not with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

And you're learning things about yourself which inform your practice. And I also tell people who are becoming parents for the first time, who are artists.It's like, don't rush that process too much, because it's that same thing about, like, the shoulds. Like, I should date my work, or I should this and that. It's like you're gonna.You're gonna go through kind of the fire and brimstone of being a human, and then you're gonna come out of it, and you're gonna have learned so many new things about your. Your capacity, love, your endurance, like, what matters most to you.And if you really let that be kind of like a weird grad school experience for three years where you're just all in it, when you come out, the work will actually be richer, stronger, more potent than it was before. But when you're fighting against it for all that time, you know, you're just frustrated and it's hard to produce anything.

Yeah. It's sort of making me anxious listening to.

I'm sorry. I do have that present. Sometimes I make people.

I'm like, wow, that seems like a lot. But that's actually a really good tip, though, because I've never heard anybody say that, like, three years.

Just give. Obviously, you'll still keep living and doing, but the brain doesn't quite work the same way it did before. You have kids. Yeah, once they're.Once they're around.

So do you think you like your work now, like, post, now that you've had your 10 years of parenting as residency or as grad school?

Yeah, mom school, parent school. I do. I like my work a lot better. Yeah, I like. I like when I'm making more now. I think it's more. I think in a.In a very strange way, I think it's more maternal.Like, I've been thinking a lot about not wanting my work to be paternalistic, where it's like, I don't want to be always, like, trying to teach everybody something or, you know, the ubiquitous you that I'm speaking in. I'm like, always keep it local. Keep it about me. Like, the more personal it is, the more universal of an impact it can have.But there is something about being maternal toward the work and toward the materials, toward the ideas that I'm working with. It's like, there's compassion, there's slowness, there's love in it. When I look at my work from before being a mom, it was a lot More.I wasn't in it as much, and even my paintings were much more aggressive and more like, visceral. And there's nothing wrong with that. But looking at it now, the transformation, I'm like, whoa. I'm more patient with my materials.Or I'm more like, just kind of want to give. I just want to give them a big hug, you know, like. And that was a big transformation because of learning it in real life, you know?

Yeah.

Realizing that we all grow and learn slowly.

Right. It is slow, isn't it?

It's slow.

Yeah. A long arc now, that's something. Nobody told me that it was all gonna be a slow process. I thought it was supposed to be fast.

Yeah. The shooting star of celebrity artists, you know, that's what I thought the goal was. And I'm like, oh, I don't think.I mean, I'm on Lumpin Radio, so now everyone's gonna know me.

Duh. Obviously, I see performing outside now, it' get crazy.

But I think I had to get rid of that expectation that in order to be successful, you have to be famous.

Oh, yeah.

And I don't know, you know, I'm sure actors deal with that. Like, in the arts, there's something about in the arts that's like, this is the only way to gauge if it's working.

Yeah.

You know, but there's so many other ways. And I think that coming with age, my world getting smaller.Like, the things I care about the most are right next to me all the time, climbing on me and asking me to hug them and all this stuff. Realizing that that impact can be deep and not wide, and that that's still a form of success. Yeah. And. Yeah.How do you richly offer gifts to the things and the people around you as well as you can? Yeah, that's. I think that's a worthy goal of success.

Absolutely. And I've been seeing, like, you know, celebrity, say, like, artists or even, just, like, actors and whatnot.When you see them make things like YouTube videos or, you know, there's that website Substack, which started out as, like, a newsletter platform, and now it's like its own weird social media. When they've. When folks have started to come over to those things, and you're like, oh, wait a minute.You know, is this, like, why are you doing this?

You're a real person? Like, I. Yeah, I love it.I'm like, oh, look at you writing about, like, posting pictures of yourself in PJs or, you know, I'm kind of a, like, Zendaya Tom Holland, fangirl. I don't know. That's like my. My one guilty pleasure for celebrity stuff. I love them, and for some reason, I just. I. The one.The posts I love of them the most are the ones where they're not made up and they're not in the red carpet. But look at them. They're just reg people.

I like it.

They're making choices, they're trying things, and. And part of them being regular people is that they are creatives working in a creative industry.

Yeah.

And then other parts are that they, you know, eat potato chips on the couch and watch movies with each other or they. Whatever, you know.

Yeah. And that they also like Real Housewives or celebrity gossip, too. Exactly.

Probably not about themselves.

Right. Oh, my gosh. I know, right? Yeah. I was listening to. I've been listening to Law Roach, who's, like, Zendaya's stylist. He has a book.

Cool.

And I've been listening to that. He's from Chicago. Yeah. Which I was like, oh, cool. He had, like, a boutique and everything here. And I was like, oh, how cool. But, yeah, like, that.I feel like that wall is coming down so that folks are diversifying. Right. Cause even him, like, where it might be a stylist, he might be in the back end now.Stylists are becoming known for the work that they're doing and these images that they're creating for, you know, celebrities and whatnot. So it's all very interesting where you wouldn't have access to that.

Yeah.

Before.

Yeah. The whole. This whole idea that like, somehow.I mean, I'm listening to, like, a book, audiobook about Van Gogh right now, and it's kind of like, how did Van Gogh become Van Gogh?

Yeah.

And I don't know, just there's this. That whole existential crisis I had in undergrad of the, like, painting has no purpose.It's a money market thing, versus the fact that there are these people who get a certain amount of time on the earth and what are we gonna do with it?

Yeah.

You know, and, like, who's it gonna impact? Will it be a positive impact? Will it be a negative one? You know, micro impacts all the way around.And, you know, Van Gogh was a really cool dude who had some serious mental health, you know, struggles in a time when there was no mental health care for him in those ways. And, you know, now I'm like, all right, I have a certain amount of time. What am I gonna do with it?And just how do I invest as much care and Creativity and kindness into the people around me, into the city, honestly, into Chicago, which is like, this is my place.

Right.

Other places are great too, but I love Chicago.

Yeah. Do you tell your kids, hey, you have a certain amount of time, what are you going to do with it?

Yeah, I know. I try not to stress them out. Talking about death.

You're going to color. Are you going to get with this? You're going to get your life together?

Yeah. Well, we do talk a lot about the like because my oldest is in seventh grade.And in Chicago, if you're not familiar with the CPS system, high school is a really big thing here. You know, seventh grade GPA is the third of your admittance into high school. And then in eighth grade you take a placement test.It's a little bit like going to college. And so we're in that process right now. We're getting ready for the test and we're gonna start going on high school tours.And you know, our family ethos, which is just one of many. We were like, we're not. What are we running toward?You know, what are we trying to get you into the best high school so you'll get into the best college so you'll get into the best, blah, blah, blah. And then what are you gonna do? Just like work yourself to the bone?

Yeah.

You know, and be. So you can do all of those things. You can go to the best of the best. But are you going like richly present in your body and in your world?Are you going for a purpose that's bigger than yourself? Are you going with an idea that is exciting and that you really want to live into? Like, those are the questions.That's like, we only have a little bit of time. Let's not worry about making as much money as possible. Let's worry about living as deeply as possible, you know, Or.Yeah, I think it's just one philosophy of many. But obviously money is important, I. E. The taxes, conversation from before.

Right.

Have to hold them both intention, just open handed.

But the high schools are free, right?

They're free, yeah. Most of them are. There are private ones that you have to pay for, but they're free. So, yeah, like if you want to.I mean, like Lane Tech, that's the school my kiddo wants to go to.

The one that everybody wants to go to.

There's like over 4,000 students at Lane Tech. I've seen the school bigger than my college was, you know.

Yeah. I don't have kids, so I don't have like really like a barrier to like, what? But I worked in a commercial where we shot at Lane Tech.And I was like, whoa, this is huge. This is for kids.

Yeah. Anybody. All of our relatives all live in Ohio. So, like, whenever we explain this to them, they're like, what?You know, like, in most school systems in the United States, you just go to the school that you live in.

That's what I did. Yeah.

And I was like, well, you know, here you have to pick your top 25 high schools to pick from. That's what you can apply to. And they're like, top 25. How many high schools are there? And I was like, there's like 160 or something like that.And, like, it's just. There's a lot. You know, It's a big city. We live in a huge, huge city.I think sometimes I forget that because it's sort of a neighborhood feeling city. And we all kind of get to know each other in some random way in some different circles, but we live in a big place.

High school is not a game. I see. I wonder if there's a documentary on that. That seems overwhelming.

I know there's a documentary about New York City preschool selections. They're even more intense than we are. Like, people started at preschool to get them up into the right Ivy League college, right?

Yeah. Okay. There was a housewife that was talking about this about trying to get her kid in a certain preschool so that they can go, like.Cause the politicians sent their kids to that preschool, and she wanted her kid to be in that network. And I'm like, I know.

It's a lot.

Whoa.

It's a lot of pressure.

That is a lot of pressure. And you're putting on your kids, and it's like, ladies, this about you, or do you want to just be invited to lunch with the politicians?

Yeah. And I mean, and to put it all back into the art context, it's a little bit like that idea of, like, okay, here's your kid.You've spent so much time caring for them, teaching them, preparing them. And then you just gotta let them go. Like, they're gonna go be themselves somewhere else without you.And it's the same with art, where it's like, I've spent all this time making this piece, researching it, thinking about it, like, yelling at it. Cause I yell at my art a lot. We have conversations, and then I just gotta, like, let it go. Like to a gallery, to a home, to an owner somewhere.Then they let it. You know, it's not in my closet anymore, and it feels like you're letting part of yourself go when that happens.It's like, I think it's an emotional process that you have to practice the letting go of things that matter the most to you so that they can keep becoming bigger without you. And that's also one of the reasons I like making art.Because in theory, these paintings I make or this documentation I've made of my pieces, the ideas will live longer than me. You know, I have artwork from dear friends who've passed away, and it's like, dang, they touched this. This was their hands that made this.And that's a beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to be able to have something from a person. So.

Yeah. And that's why I think the marketing piece of it all becomes overwhelming, because then people, they'll say, your art deserves it.That piece deserves to be marketed properly.

Don't underestimate your value. You're so, you know, it's like, I don't know, I don't have to market all of this stuff. Yeah, I want to make it.

I know. And low key people have teams, but I'm like, these teams also come with a price, for sure.Like, they have families and stuff too, that you have to pay.

And if you're not charging a bazillion dollars, you got to charge a ton for the work so that you can pay the people to market it.And then my biggest thing too is that, like, okay, if I have to charge thousands of dollars for every painting, then people I know who I care about in my community, in this city can't afford my artwork.

Yeah.

And I feel like it's very. I think a life lived next to real art made by real people is one of, one of the signs of a healthy, rich life. It's not the only one by any means.But like, if you have things in your home that you live beside this artwork, like, it's technically just what it is, but it's almost like a mirror too. Like, you live your life with it and you look at it and it reflects you back to yourself.And as you change, the way you see it changes and it becomes, you know, like a relic in your life that means more to you than just the things it's made out of.

Yeah.

And if we only surround ourselves with, you know, plastic things that, you know, the art can't be plastic, but, you know, these things that aren't really personal or human, I think we're missing out. I think, you know, people are missing out.So I want to make my work affordable so that there's even an option for someone to have that in their homes and in their lives.

Aw, that's so nice.

Yeah. But then no marketing team, you know, right?

Oh, yeah, I definitely don't have a marketing team. This is definitely, like, so it's like, if you don't see that I've shared something, it's because I've, like, it's overwhelming.I haven't had time or I don't wanna. It's like a whole other practice. I'm trying to think of marketing as a creative thing, but it still is overwhelming.

Yeah, it is. It is.I can tell I'm not in the healthiest mind space when I start thinking more about my follower numbers, my blah, blah, you know, like, how many people know about this, how many people saw my reel, all that stuff than what I'm making the work about. Like, if I start thinking more about those things and I'm like, okay, this isn't. I don't think I'm personally doing well.This is a checks and balance moment. It's information. I'm gonna go ass. Why? I'm more worried about my popularity than my. Than my product. The thing I'm making, you know?

Yeah, yeah. When you do your podcast, do you have, like, a time set? You know, as we were like, winding up in our conversation, like, how is your.Like, let me think. How do I want to ask this?I'm wondering if you have, like, a set time where you go to, like, talk to yourself for these, for, like, the episodes that you put out and, like, as preparation. Yeah, I guess so, like. Or do, you know, like, okay, it's Wednesday. You're in your studio. Let me stop and talk. Do you do something like that or. No.

No.

Okay.

No, I don't. I'm very sporadic and wild about it. It's often last.In season two, I tried to prepare the schedule ahead of time, so I was like, I'm gonna be so on top of things. And actually was really helpful. I had the whole year kind of mapped out. People knew when their dates were. Were like, this is great.And then it didn't happen again after that. But yeah, I think so. Mine is always in person.My conversations are always in person because I'm kind of over zoom, you know, in the whole season that we had before. And also, I think that timing is very important, so I want to make sure that nothing gets in the way of the timing of our conversation.

Yeah.

And so it often becomes about scheduling. Like, hey, when can you do it? Are you around? Are you traveling to Chicago, whatever.You know, I've gone on the road for the pirate podcast before and gone to Iowa and Michigan, and we have to set that stuff up ahead of time. But something I do do to prepare for it is I like to.So if I'm running real high, if I'm, like, really anxious and I got a lot of energy, I'm like, okay, I need to listen to the type of energy that I want in my voice.So I go find a podcast, either one of my own or someone else's, and I just listen to it for, like, an hour before, just to, like, okay, this person's so calm and vibey. And then I come into the space kind of vibing as well.Or if I'm really tired and aloof, then I, like, listen to, like, music or a podcast that's, like, really bouncy to bring me up a little.

Oh, that's interesting. You, like, start to echo.

I'm reaching for what? I think I need more.

Yeah, Yeah, I like that. So in a way, it becomes, like a performance, too, In a way.

Yeah. Yeah. I think all communication is kind of a performance.

Yeah, that's true.

It's about how we. I think humor is about timing. It's so much like. To make someone laugh is basically a magic trick.You have to have so many stars aligned to get that to happen. And, yeah, I just love all those little invisible, unseen nuances that somehow, if you aggregate them in just the right way, it creates a star.You know, it's this beautiful moment.

Yeah.

And it disappears again.

So what kind of things have you been talking about or do you have coming up for your podcast that.

Well, so, yeah, I've been in the last several episodes and the next several coming up. I had. I was a part of a group show at Dankhaus German Cultural Center. They have a space in there that we used, and it was a group show.So basically, I went through and had a conversation with each of the artists that were in that group show, or most of them, and we did it in the gallery so that we could literally be looking at the work that they had in the show.And then we talked about that piece as a gateway into their practice, which was really fun because usually it's a more generic, open conversation, but this was like, I'm gonna say what I see in this piece, and then we're gonna talk more. So that has been rolling out, and I've got a few more of those coming up still.So it's just, like, local artists who are at different stages in their career, doing really cool work. And it's kind of a cold read is what I like to like.I kind of want to do a cold read sub series where I just go to the museum and say, like, yeah, this is what I see. This is why I think it's saying this. This is the color it's using. This is the size it is to teach people how to unpack.Looking at artwork, because it's something we learn in school, but not everybody learns that. So, yeah, I really started enjoying that.

Yeah. I remember I went to an exhibition with a friend and he never seen work and he's only seen it, like, on tv.So he would go up to each artist and he would be like, so, what was your motivation behind this? And I'm like, oh, that's a big question. I know, but, you know, he just got it from watching TV or whatever.

It's an honest question though, you know?

Yeah. I feel like his face, he's like, just copying what he saw. And it's like, he didn't have to do all that, you know, it was just so funny.So like, each and every person, they would just be. You could see each artist just taking back.

Cause it's like their face, like 8.

O' clock at night and you're walking with somebody who's like packing up like, so what was your motivation behind this? And he's like saying it in a way, like shaking his head, like, so now you look, like, sort of rude.

You know, or like he thinks he really knows what he's talking about.

Right. And so then the artist will answer, like in their speaking art speak. Right.Because he's approached them looking all like, academic and collegiate about it, and he has no idea what they're saying, you know, and it's just.

That's another one thing that I feel very strongly about is like, just be yourself, you know, like, we don't have to impress each other. Like, there's this whole world of acting like, we gotta impress each other. But that's the width of my podcast and hopefully with my work.It's like, what if you just said, like, I don't understand this. Can you tell me about it?

Yeah.

And then that gives, you know, the artist the opportunity to be like, oh, you're curious and you don't know much about academic art. So I'm not gonna talk over your head. I'm gonna meet you where you are.

Yeah.

Then you have a really meaningful, interesting conversation that actually makes an impact.

Right.

As opposed to all of us walking around pretending like we're big fency people who have all the words and.

Right. We certainly are not. And I'm always asking people to explain these big words. It's like, what do you mean?Like, I'm sorry, what do you mean by supercalifragilis? Like what?

Oh man, I used to, in grad school, man, oh my goodness. I used to write down words on my folder, like secretly when the professors would use them because I was like, I have no idea.But you can't like look it up in class. So you just write it down. And I go home and I would just Google dozens of words every night, you know, like, what is physiognomy and what you know.And still I hear these words and I'm a little bit triggered by them, but. And then one day I realized I'm using these words too. No, I've become.

Well, I like your approach of, you know, how you're making work. How you said, you know, this is like work for. Not work for the blue collar worker, but like your lens of how you're seeing that.

Work for.

See, that's me talking fancy through the lens.

Through the lens. We all say lens. Oh, there's so many.

That's a new lens.

Interesting. That's so interesting.I say it all the time, you know, I mean, really, at the end of the day, it's like, look at your work through your actual eyes instead of through what you think other people want to look at your work through. Because I, at my core, I am a blue collar kid.

Yeah.

I'm the first kid in my family to go to college. I happen to go to upper level of school and I felt lost the whole time and I made it, I did great.But you know, just like, what does my work want from me? And then go forward, like, try to be honest about that.Yeah, you know, like maybe blue collar people will like my work more if I'm honest about the fact that I'm also a blue collar person, you know, who happens to be living in another world now because of the place my life took me on.

But I love that. Well, if folks are interested, where could they find all of this?

Well, you could check out my website, kimmynotkim.com and Kimmy is spelled K I M M Y, which is my preferred spelling. And I'm also on Instagram immotkim. Those are probably the two most direct ways to find me. And yeah, send me a message.Follow the podcast KimmyNotKimpodcast on any platform where you get your listening delights leave a rating. Follow along. I'd love to hear from you. Make me happy.

Yes, I know she would love to hear from me because she's so nice.

Aw, thanks.

Thank you so much for talking with me.

Oh, it was so fun.

Lumpin Radio. I love it.

Yay. Lumpin.

So nice.

I'm so happy that we got to spend some time together. It was really nice. And I'm in a real, real live studio.

I know. Know, right? It's so cool. We're so official.

It's a little different than recording in my art studio.

For sure.

All right. Bye.

Bye. Oh, she saw Nosy. Oh, she's so nosy. Oh, she's so nosy. Nosy.