Your Calm Calendar: Rest, Burnout Recovery, and Resisting Hustle Culture with Nicole Havelka

Gotta get up, get up Tell the whole world you a winner, winner vision of a star with a mission in the cause what you doing, how you doing, what you're doing and who you are Flex yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't work yourself if you know me then you know that I be knowing what's up. Hey, Stephanie Graham is nosy as WLPNLP Chicago 105.5 FM lumpen radio. Hey, Chicago. Welcome.And welcome back to nosey AF conversations about art, activism and social change.I am your host, Stephanie Graham, and today I am joined by Nicole Havelka, a burnout recovery coach, mindfulness teacher, and former pastor who now helps people resist hustle culture and build more sustainable lives.She's also the host of the podcast Just Rest Burnout Tips for Everyday Radicals, and recently launched the Calm Calendar Club, which helps people plan their lives in a way that actually honors their energy and real responsibilities. I mean, really, the Lord's work. Nicole, welcome to nosey af.

Thank you so much. It is a joy to be here and to, you know, giving a shout out to my peeps in Chicago. It is the city of my heart. I don't live there currently.I do live in Urbana, Illinois now, but I lived in Chicago for many years, and it is the place that I know and love. So I'm glad to be on the radio in the hood again, which is so great.

Yeah, we are happy to have you here and especially with all of the wonderful things you're doing. I mean, come on. Calm Calendar Club. It's like everybody is just so busy, you know, it's like we're all busy.We all have our hustles, we all have families, we all have, you know, partners trying to get partners. I mean, everybody just has so much going on. So I'm just really glad that you're taking some time to talk to us this afternoon.

Awesome. I love it.

Yeah. So, you know, you describe yourself as a recovering grind culture addict. What does that mean?And, like, how did you realize you needed to change the way you were living and working?

Oh, that's a great question. So I'll tell you a little bit about me.I think very early in my life, I won't go into all the detail, but very early in my life, I learned or I absorbed somehow that, like, working and doing more was a way to prove myself and prove my value. I couldn't have put words to that. I'm sure this is something I learned when I was very, very young. Right.That that was something that I should be doing that I needed to work more and do more. And then, especially in my teen years, I had a really tumultuous relationship with my family and with my parents.And in my mind, and this sort of proved to be true in my mind, doing more, getting better grades and getting out. I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, and getting out of there and going to college was the way I just had to get away from it.And so I learned early on that, like, that means I do more to put on a college resume, do more, you know, to prove myself. I don't.I mean, and that in some ways, that turned out to be true. Like, it got. It did get me out. I went away to college. And I've lived in lots of different places in the United States since the.But it also taught me, like, you should, like, working without end.I'm also naturally someone who has a lot of energy, at least until this. More. This later stage of my life. I have less energy now than I used to, but I still have boatloads of energy relative to what some people have.So I'm full of energy and I want to do things and I'm. I'm creative and I'm always having a lot of ideas, and I don't necessarily have to follow all the ideas, but I like to follow at least some of them.

Yeah.

So that just gives me some of it as personality as well, that I just really like to do a lot of things and do, you know, like, saying yes to be on this podcast and which I know, which is fun and I will enjoy, I'm sure, but agreeing to be on the show.

Yeah, you know, that's so true.Like, I feel like when we're in high school and applying for college and stuff like that, they're always like, well, make sure you have activities like be in basketball, be a part of student council, be a part of, like, African American History Club, like, you know, do chess club, like, all these extracurriculars to, like, show up that, you know, to, like, prove ourselves worthy. Like, look at how. Look at how much stuff we managed. Yeah.

And it was way. It's way worse for young people now. I mean, that was in the 90s or, you know, late 80s, early 90s for me and the young people now.And the pressure they have to constantly be doing more and put so much on a resume in order to get into the right college, because if you don't, you know, your life will be worthless or whatever, which is absolute nonsense. I also hate.And I used to work with young people so, like, there's all kinds of pet peeves I have built up about what happens to especially high schoolers, but it really starts even earlier than that.The, you know, that pressure to, like, oh, you should be in a hundred clubs, like you said, and do three sports and all of these things in order to get into college. Or like that even. That's just the way you have to show up. And what it. And what it teaches us when we're young is that you don't.Like, you don't need to make priorities or make choices about how you use your time. And, like, gives us the false notion that there is infinite time, which there's. There simply is.I mean, time is infinite in the grand scheme of things, but in terms of our lives, it's finite. And the amount of energy we have, you know, because we do need to sleep and all of that is. Is finite, we need to.To pull back and make sure that we're resting enough. And so we don't teach young people how to manage that at all.

Yeah.

And that's why I have to teach people as adults and why I've had to teach myself and teach other adults to make priorities, get clear on what you really want to do, and then schedule for that. Yeah.

Even thinking about high school, like, I remember taking a time management class, but nobody ever, like, talked about rest in it, so what the heck, right?

I bet they didn't. They were all. It was probably all geared toward which most time management programs are like, it was probably geared toward getting more done.

Yeah. No, definitely. It really was.And then you're, like, burning out your parents because they have to bring you everywhere, like caretakers or whatever, and it's just a big mess.

Right. Well, and I mean. Right. I see the other flip side of that now with my. My clients who are patients or who are parents. Right. Like, they.Anything that their child wants to do is now their project.

Yeah.

I mean, there's no way to avoid that. That's just parenting.

Right.

So if your kid's in Girl Scouts, you're gonna sell cookies.

Right.

Like, that's just how it works. Right. That's just. It's. Well, we're recording, and it's sort of. It's Girl Girl Scout cookie season, so that's why it popped to mind.

But, like, no, for sure.

Yeah. Or your kid plays basketball, you're gonna take them to practices and to games and all of that. And if you.If you have you step that up at all, where, like, the kids who are in travel, sports and Things like that, which are incredibly expensive and incredibly time consuming because you're often. They're in season, they're traveling every week into some tournament which. Oh my gosh, parents, it's so much.

God bless them.

I am not a parent, I will confess that, but it, it just sounds exhausting to me, honestly.

God bless the parents out here that are doing the work. You know, you've spent years in ministry before starting your own work in this burnout recovery.What did that experience in ministry teach you about burnout?

Oh my gosh, that it's rampant. I mean, that it is just sort of the way that things are. And I didn't even question it in the beginning. Well, I question it in this.In as much as this. So when I was in seminary, which I went to Chicago Theological Seminary, by the way, so another shout out to shout out to chi town.I went to Chicago Theological Seminary and there was a conversation then, and that was in the early 2000s, about how this is a really intense kind of thing that we do. How do we take care of ourselves? So there was that conversation present. But the reality of academia.So part of being ordained, at least in my tradition in the United Church of Christ, is that generally this is a little less required now. But like, generally you have to do a Master's of divinity degree and among other requirements before you're ordained.And a Master's of divinity, generally speaking, is a three year degree. So it takes at least three years. Often it took me four.

Okay.

And it includes unpaid internships, at least two of them. Sometimes. Yeah.And occasionally you can do intern work paid, but usually it's unpaid internships or for that matter, you're paying for the privilege of doing them. That's the other thing.Like you have to pay some fees in your registration and the amount of cost in order to count them as credit and all that nonsense. But so you're often doing unpaid labor or very low paid labor during that time. Plus you're doing.I don't remember the number of classes that required, but a lot, you know, you're taking master's level classes. This isn't easy stuff, right?

Yeah.

And I felt well prepared to do it in term academically. But some folks come from very different sort of academic backgrounds and it's much harder for them.I was an English and theater major, so doing theology wasn't a hard step for me. For some people it was a lot harder. So I think in that time I did have that sort of sense that taking care of yourself was important.And so that was a thread for me. Like, I was pretty good about making sure I take days off. People aren't in ministry often, especially local church pastors, which I have never been.Just. That caveat is that other than an internship when I was in seminary, I never served a local church. And that is a very different thing.You're in like, relationship with people. You deal with emergency calls and things like that. For people who are dying or in the hospital. I never had to deal with that. So full disclosure.So also shout out and blessings to the pastors that are out there, because that is hard work.

Yeah.

That's not a lie. It is seriously hard work. The energy it takes to be present all the time.

Oh my God.

So much energy to do that. Yeah. And in a particular role with particular expectations heaped on you too.Luckily, I was in roles in the wider church, meaning the sort of denominational level that definitely had roles and expectations and all of that kind of stuff heaped on it. But not in the same way.Like, I would visit a church and then I would be on for a certain amount of time and then I could drive home, you know, I had to drive home and it was like you, you know, checked out like it was totally fine. I had jobs like that. So I was always conscious and I was really good about taking days off.And when I worked for other people, I'm actually worse about this now that I work for myself exclusively, but I. I took care of myself.But I also learned, or I have observed, like, what I was just naming, especially for folks who lived in or who worked in the local church, like, how difficult it was for them to take days off. In part because of the reality of the work, but also because of what people expected.And I think it's just unrealistic now to expect anyone to be on call 24 7.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's just not human. And so no one can do that. You know, there's a reason why emergency workers or work shifts.

Yeah.

You know, you're on for a time and then you're off, right?

Yeah.

And there's none of that in that sort of a role. You're not off in the same way or the expectation is that you're not off. That is starting to change a little bit now in that world.But that was the one thing that I noticed right away.And it's like I tried my best to model self care for folks in those roles and to encourage them to set boundaries around that dynamic of their job that they actually maybe needed to have a conversation with their congregation about what does it mean? One of my colleagues actually says, like, that he did this. Like, what does it mean for us to care for each other.

Yeah.

And that I need care, too, in order for me to be able to show up when needed. And then I also think that some of that.I often encourage people to, like, have conversations around getting their expectations on the same page, because for some people, especially older folks, like, they were used to having a pastor who, by the way, were all men who generally had wives.

Yeah, right.

Were at home taking care of children and could, like, they could just drop every.Not that it was healthy necessarily, but they could drop everything and didn't have to work worry about a household, which just isn't the case anymore.

Yeah, right.

You have pastors of all different shapes and sizes and family configurations and things like that. So that's just not possible for people to drop everything. So what? So I encourage people to get on board or on.Have the conversation about what constitutes an emergency and what is this response time I should have.

Yeah.

And what is the way that. And just get on the same page. This can take a lot of forms. Get on the same page about how do you contact me?

Yeah.

And then is there. Then what is the way that we respond?Like, to have a system for that, because otherwise everybody has their own idea about what it is or what it should be. And if you're not clear, it's just. It's just going to be a whole mess. It's a whole mess. Exactly.I didn't know we were going to talk about that this afternoon, Stephanie, but this is something that I've had many conversations with colleagues about. So that's what I've learned about it. It is a high burnout.If not, I would bet nearly everyone, especially since COVID are just operating at some level of burnout.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I felt like. I feel like I've come out. Not maybe.I don't know if I've come out of it, but I know, like, around Covid, I was hitting burnout and having to, like, figure out what that is and what that means. And even, like, now creatively starting to, like, feel like I'm getting back on track. And. Yeah, it is. It's really, really tough.And, you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about, you know, you've heard the phrase, you know, if you want something done, ask a busy person.And I was having lunch with some folks from my union, and like, we were just sort of talking about, like, hey, maybe we can organize this Organize that. And then, you know, just trying to figure out how we can get more people, like, in our union, you know, involved.And someone asked the question, like, well, are you a good neighbor? Like, are you a part of, like, any community organizations or whatever?And pretty much a lot of the people that were at that lunch also were a part of, you know, trying to organize the union. They also, you know, community members, like, work at their, you know, at the Girls Club or whatever.And I guess what I'm just trying to get at, and this is not going to be a fair question. I'm going to ask it anyway.I'm just wondering, do you find that people who care most about the world or that are, like, doing so much are the ones who are most likely to burn out? And also, is that. Is that rude to ask? Is that a rude question? I don't know.

I don't think it's rude, but I'm not easily offended. You might be asking the wrong person.

I hope the listener is not like, oh, no, she didn't, you know, she

did not just ask that. No, no, no. I think that's a really good question because.And it's so interesting you asked that, because I was actually for a client project that I'm working on. I was just doing some research on, like, current. The current state of volunteerism in the United States. Okay.

Yeah.

And what's interesting is that in Covid, of course, it took a steep decline because of COVID restrictions. You know, a lot of people who. Who volunteer are retired, so these are older folks who would have been most vulnerable and things like that.Couldn't retire any or couldn't. Couldn't volunteer anymore. So it took like a steep drop in Covid and then.But since it came back, it's actually nearly the same levels as it was like in 2019.

Oh, okay.

However, they have the same numbers of people giving, but the amount of time each one gives per year is. Is a lot lower.

Okay.

Which is really interesting. So volunteer organizations are actually doing. They're trying to do as much or maybe even more in the times we find ourselves in. Right.

Yeah.

With fewer. Even if you have the same numbers of people, which may not be true, they're able to give or willing to give less time. And so that's really difficult.And so one of the solutions that is suggested by the research that I did, and, you know, I be interested to hear this, hear how this pans out for people or what. What response anybody, the listeners might have about this is that you need, if you're an organization, you need to think about it in smaller chunks.Like thinking about it in how do you to engage people, you're going to have to give them much smaller, more time, limited commitments and clearer. So I think what's happening now more than ever is that we have this.And this was also referred to in the stuff that I read, but I've read this before. You might have heard the 8020 rule.And the 8020 gets applied to a lot of things, but in this case it's that 80% of the work it's done by 20% of the people. And it would actually be a lot healthier if we sort of flip the script on that. Like, so what if you had 80% of the people doing this much?You know, each person doing a tiny chunk, but more people doing more people doing it. And that means you have to get really clear about again, I think an organization speaks. So I apologize for that if that's problematic.But like, you can always move me in different direction. But like we're all CEOs.

We're all CEOs.

We're all CEO's. Right? Well, we all. Even if we're doing like you said, even if what you're talking about is like your role in your union, right?That's organizing people. Right? You're thinking about that.So what people need more of is bite sized chunks, clear roles and responsibilities, or people simply won't do it because they have to sort of and get really clear about what kind of time commitment it is for people. And a lot younger. And it's also very generational.Older folks, you know, like baby boomers are more willing to take ongoing responsibilities like serving on a board or committee. That's what immediately came to mind. But something that's a more regular requirement, you know, regular thing.

Yeah.

People who are younger are much less likely to do that.I'm sure some of that is just life circumstance, but I think it's also preference like so for Gen Z and Millennials especially, you have to really say this is a tiny little bite sized chunk. What if you do? You might do something for six weeks, but then you'd be done.

Yeah.

Versus here's a six year commitment of being on a board or something like that, which they mostly won't do anymore. I'm sure you have exceptions to every rule. Right?But like mostly they're not gonna do that because it's just too much for them to be able to manage an ongoing responsibility like that.

Yeah, that's a good idea. That's Actually, like, really smart, too. It's like, hey, I need you to just take tickets from 2 to 4 for the next six weeks.You know, and then that way the person knows, like, okay, from two to four, I'm taking my tickets. Then I can go on and let it be that.

Or on the third Thursday of every month or something like that. For those two hours, you'll do that. Or some, you know, come up with ways of chunking that up. But I think it's that dynamic that does.Those are the kinds of people who do, I think. And then what people do is they.Because they care about whatever they care about, whether that's your union or your church or your pto, if you're a parent, whatever. The thing is, if you care about those things. Right. And so there are some people who kind of get right in the inner circle of that kind of thing.And there are certain personalities that are more likely to get in there than others. Right.

Yeah.

And they want to be in that place. They do care, and they want that thing to go well. And so they're giving what ends up being 110%.And then other people aren't given the opportunity to do that. It's a really. And so those people often get certainly tired and resentful. Yeah. And probably burned out on the thing.I've certainly seen that happen in volunteers in the church world or just in general. Oh, they're doing the same thing over and over again.All they do is complain about that no one else will do it, but they also won't step away in order to let someone else do it.

Yeah, yeah.

And there is this habit, and I talk about this a lot with folks in my community and with my coaching clients about, like, this notion that we are the only one who can do a particular thing.

Yeah.

And that is a tool of toxic capitalism, white supremacy and patriarchy. Let's be clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this isn't something that's, like, taught, like, disordered in us. It's taught to us by our culture and our system.

I've also seen the reverse where it's like, people that have so much to say and they have so many opinions, and it's like, hey, do you wanna run for the school board next year? And they're like, no, no, no, no. But it's like, well, you need to put your hand down then.

Right. That dynamic does happen too. Like, you're not wrong. You're not wrong about that. Right, Right.

I just was making me think about that. It's like, oh, My gosh. Those types of folks just kill me. But I feel like. I don't know. I'm just get so.Like, our culture just really glorifies exhaustion, and I'm just so over that. Aren't you?

Totally. I mean, I definitely wore kind of looping back to our first part of our conversation. I definitely wore exhaustion like a badge of honor. Yeah.Oh, I'm so busy.

I'm so busy. It's so lame to be busy. It feels.

It's so lame to be busy. And you know what? I still say it, even though I try to. I've tried to eradicate that from my language, and it still comes out like, how are you?I'm busy.

Yeah.

Which is true. But that doesn't actually say anything about how I am.

Yeah, it's true.

Notice it's not like, at least saying I was exhausted. It would be a slightly more honest answer if that's the case. But, you know, like, our default is like, oh, I'm so busy.And people are supposed to, like, I don't know, what. What are we saying when we. We say that? I. I try not to say that anymore, but I. I still fall into the habit. Cause it was such. For such a long time.That's what I did. I'm like, because if I'm busier than the next person or whatever, that somehow makes me more valuable. And that's exactly what our culture teaches us.And it's just ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. I'm trying to even just sort of get out of that myself.Like, you know, if there's friends that aren't doing stuff, it's like, that doesn't mean, like, that they aren't great. They just don't want to do anything.

Right. I mean, it's okay, you know? Or think back to the early days of COVID lockdown. Especially like, that first, you know, nine months to a year.And how many people would tell you privately that they were so happy they could say no?

Yeah. Yeah.

To those billions of requests? Or those. Those. Those extra things they had to go to, either for family or their children or whatever.And how many conversations did I have that are like, oh, I'm so glad I have an excuse to say no to that.

Yeah.

And I'm like, what if we just didn't need an excuse?

Yeah.

What if we just said no? That, like, no should be a. No is a complete answer. Right. But even so, that if you said no, that's my time for rest. And.And that would just be normal and expected and no one would even think twice about that.

Right. People wouldn't be like, ooh, okay, miss thing, you need to rest. Okay. It's like, oh, my gosh. You know, really quick.Do you have any, like, suggestions on how not to judge folks who aren't busy or, like, who aren't, like, you know, on the move? I feel like, you know, just growing up, I'm always like, oh, yeah, you gotta get money. We're on the move. We're on the go.We're hustling, we're hustling. And then everybody. And I still sort of have that about me.And I'm trying to just incorporate more breaks, but I feel like sometimes if other people aren't like that, it's like, come on, man. And I need to not be like that. That's really cool.

Pick up the pace. Come on. Right.

Do you have any advice to how to not be like that?

Oh, my gosh, that's a great question. I think what's worked for me is actually try to be, as much as I can, like, in sort of deep listening and deep empathy mode more often.And that comes from being better rested, by the way.

Like.

Cause I have more.If I'm better rested, I'm better able to listen to people and understand what their circumstances are and maybe assume that what someone's doing is their best.

Yeah.

For whatever reason, just giving people the benefit of the doubt.

That's really good, Nicole.

In any kind of circumstance, not just in terms of them being not or seemingly not busy or whatever, or making different decisions. They're not on the grind.

They're not on their grind.

Right. I mean, I would actually, like, now I try to applaud that. These aren't the people who I typically work with.They're the, you know, people come to me because they are on the grind and they're trying to figure out how to get off. The people who are off the grind don't need me, quite frankly. And that's fine. I wish we had. Let's work me out of a job, ladies and gentlemen.Like, let's do that. Yeah. Make me not have a job. I'll find a new one. I'm really creative. I'll find something else to do.

Yeah, that's okay. That's good advice. I'm going to start giving people the benefit of the doubt.And, you know, I'm going to check myself and be like, why are you thinking like that? Are you rested? Are you rested? Then maybe I need to go and just chill out a little bit. Like, I need to calm the. Calm down.

Maybe just take a minute, you know, give yourself a minute. Stephanie, Stare out the window for a minute. Like just. Or sit down and lay your. Like close your eyes. Just close your eyes for a moment.I got that from one of my favorite books about rest is Rest is Resistance by Tricia Herst.

Oh, yes, of course, Our Bible.

Yeah, the Bible. It's one of the Bibles.

The guiding text. The guiding text.

One of the guiding texts, for sure. I do. I love that book. And she has such a beautiful description of witnessing.I think it was her grandmother who would without fail, like, sit down for. Lay down for 20 minutes a day, I think it was. And just close her eyes. Not necessarily sleeping. Yeah, I like Jennifer just laying down. Just be still.And she talks about that, like, seeing that as a child and like that was a good example. But as a kid, of course, had no idea what was going on there.But in that context, you know, Trisha Hersey, a black woman, of course, her grandmother was too. And her grandmother, I think, would have grown up in Jim Crow. Like the radicalness of her taking 20 minutes to herself every day.

Yeah, it's a big deal.

Yeah, it's a big deal when your whole life is. It's assumed that your whole life is in to give to other people.

Sure. Yeah.

And then that's your only purpose for sure.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

Cool. We're going to take a quick break, y', all, and we'll be right back with Nicole. Real Talk.How many opportunities have you bookmarked and never applied to? I know I have. And you know what? It happens.The admin part of the work we're doing is all understandably boring and tedious, but when you neglect it, it can cost you real opportunities. That's why I created Artist Admin Hour, because behind every exhibition is a clear budget submitted. That makes sense. Admin is the flex.It's the work that makes the work work. But you don't have to do it alone. Every Wednesday, 7 to 9pm Central, artists show up on Zoom to tackle what we've been avoiding.Residency applications, grant apps, budgets, invoices, whatever's on your list. Two hours of body doubling with structure, no shame and real community. 25 to 45amonth gets you in.But if that's not doable, email me, because getting this done is very important. We will make it work. Stop letting admins sabotage your practice. Join us today at artist admin hour.com. WLPNLP Chicago 105.5 FM lumpen radio.We are talking with Nicole about burnouts.Nicole, one thing that you have is you've launched this program Calm Calendar Club and you have to tell us like what problem were you trying to solve here with Calm Calendar Club?

Well, it's interesting because when I first started the business that I have now, my idea was very vague in retrospect and what I really wanted to do was help leaders rest more.

Okay.

The kind of people we've been talking about, the, the type A, the high achieving, the people who really care about the world, you know, I wanted to help them not burn out. I wanted to, I didn't use that language initially but you know, I wanted to help them incorporate more rest.And I sort of realized very early on it was very difficult to get people to do that. And so I started just posting on social media.The que kind of the question what gets in the way of you getting taking care of yourself like doing self care or taking more time for rest? And what people responded without fail was that they didn't have time, they didn't know where they'd fit it in. Like a second thing was money.But more often people would, even more often people would say time. And that was what vexed them. You know, that was the problem. And you know, in business we call that a pain point.So what, they're what people, even though people are exhausted and they need to rest more, what feels like the problem to people and I think is legitimately given the culture we've already just described, like time feels like the bigger problem.And so I kind of realized, I don't know, a year and a half in or something that I was gonna need to do something to get help them get over the time management problem. But I didn't wanna do it in the same way that everyone else did. And so I had to really feel my way into that.So I am a pretty, I'm a planner, I a fairly organized person. Although I'm. I've had to next level it as a business owner.I would say yeah, like I thought I was planned but let me tell you, not even nearly to the degree that I am now when I realized that.And that was around the time that I launched my first sort of group coaching community which at the time had a bunch of different things in it, including weekly yoga class.It was way too much in retrospect, weekly yoga classes, it had a monthly group coaching session, had some virtual co working in there, a bunch of things which was just confusing and too much for people as you can imagine. But like I was Throwing spaghetti?

Yeah. Like you said, people need chunks, right?

They need small bite sized chunks. And I was not doing that. But this was again kind of COVID was happening. Like, who knew what was going on in the world.So I was throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall. But then what I realized is that like, eventually the what started to happen. I again heard this time management problem over and over again.And so what I started to do is throw. So the monthly coaching session eventually had quarterly planning sessions in it.

Okay.

So I would have some other content, like around burnout and rest in between. And then every third month there would be a quarterly planning session. And so over.I did that for two or three years with that community with, you know, all those other resources and eventually just really like over time, like iterating and iterating and iterating the planning session. I got and created this quarterly planning session. Okay.I'm always still tweaking things, by the way, but then I really have gotten it to a place that I think it works fairly well. And so the way I have it kind of designed now in the calm calendar club. So what I did, I noticed that people were really overwhelmed.They had trouble engaging all of those resources. So I said, I'm gonna have to break this up. Like this is too much for people.And also in the times we're in, with money being as tight for people, or even if it's not tight, like the perception of instability makes people not want to spend money. Right. Totally. Understandably, I'm like, I need to also make this at a lower price point for people.So I wanted to make something that was a fairly accessible offer and that would get at that time management problem. So what I've now kind of just pulled some of that out of that giant amount of content that I have.I've just pulled out the quarterly planning session. I've designed one and I'll plan to design more in the context of the community. Like a 10 minute, like quick planning session.If you're overwhelmed and you don't have space for a full planning session, like, just do these little ones. I have some tools and resources that I've been giving out for years that are just little.Hey, if you're stressed out, here's some things you can do, like just basic stuff. And then I'm planning on designing a few more of those, like shorter kinds of planning sessions.But I want to do that in conversation with people rather than me making some stuff up.

Yeah.

And you know, again, I'm less like, I'm not throwing as much spaghetti at the wall at this point. But the quarterly planning session comes in two different formats. It's for one of them is. So it's.If you just want one video and a guidebook and you just want to do the whole thing, like that's a thing. You can do that. And then I've. But I've also edited down and like have that longer session in lots of little chunks. So if people.For a variety of reasons. So if you really don't have time and you just want to do a little bit now and then come back, you can do it that way. That has a guidebook too.And then. Or you can just sort of self design.So the other thing that I have been encountering related to time management is people, especially women in their midlife. But it happens all the time. Sort of discovering that they're ADHD or they are neurodivergent in some way.And for many folks, and I've had lots of these conversations, like typical planning stuff doesn't work for them because it doesn't work for their brain.And so what I've tried to do by putting like different pieces together for people is that like, listen, you can, you can DIY your own version of this.

Yeah.

And you can even take my ideas and make something yourself, quite frankly. Like, you know, like, you know how we do, we riff off of each other's ideas. If there's something that gives you an idea, here's another version.And I might add some more tools and things in there eventually. Again with more feedback from people in the community. That would be my hope. So that's why I did it.It was really because time was the big pressure point. I would love to teach yoga and meditation all day long and lead retreats and do all the rest stuff all the time.But the reality is that I needed to get people over the hump of that.And the other thing that we do or that is present in the planning sessions is that the first thing that I insist you do is put on your calend time for you. And that might be becoming slightly more common now, but I think it's far less. It's still.Most of the time management stuff is like your class in high school, Stephanie. It was like, hey, you're managing your time so you can get more done was really the main goal. And that's not my goal at all.It might help you be more efficient and get more done. That might actually happen. But that's not the goal. The goal is to make you give you More time for rest, help you think through.What does it mean having more time for breaks even when you're doing one, you know, one small part of a project, for example, like what is it like to take 20, you know, a five minute break every 25 minutes or something like that? Yeah.

Cause I was thinking like sometimes, you know, there's all these different ways of planning, all these different planning systems and if people don't follow it, then they feel like they're failing. Yeah. Why do you think that happens?

I think the system is designed for us to fail it.

Yeah.

Honestly, we aren't failing the system. You're just trying to do too much. I mean, I'm guilty of it as much as anyone, frankly.And I already confessed that that's been a habit since I was probably 15, if not younger. So we try to do too much.And so a lot of times when people come to me, they're like, I don't, I just can't, I'm dropping these balls or I can't get this done, or I'm awake at 7am and I'm going till 10pm and I don't stop because I, I, I don't stop until I collapse in bed.

Oh my goodness.

I mean I've, I've had people tell me that that's especially true for moms. Like that they're just going, going, going either with their moms that also have, you know, full time jobs and things like that.Like they're going, going, going, taking kids everywhere and then they're making lunches and then they're finally collapsing into bed or whatever for, for the next day and oh my gosh, like that, that life is designed for failure. It's really not your fault.Like if you get nothing else from this conversation, your friends, if you're feeling behind, if you're feeling like you just can't get everything done on your to do list, it's not your fault. You're not failing.The system is failing you because it's telling you in the same way we told like in the pattern we absorbed when we're say teenagers. Like that it tells us to get into college. You need to do, fill in the blank. These 20 things.Well, the same kind of thing happens whether you're, we were using the example of being a pastor earlier. Whether you're the role of a pastor or a mom or a dad, like there's expectations or the expectations of an artist. You tell me about that, Stephanie.What is that? How does grind culture get infused into being an artist? How does that sort of productivity thing happen in these different roles?And that's present, I think in almost anybody's role, depending on regardless I think of what kind of job that you're in or what kind of role that you're in, you're never doing enough by the standards of I don't know who makes them up, but quite frankly, whoever made, whoever they are, who made these rules up, you know, like, we're never gonna meet them. And so the power that we have. And again, I'm gonna credit the person who said this because it wasn't my idea.It comes from Sonya Renee Taylor, who wrote the book the Body is Not an Apology. And she said this in a podcast I think I heard her on one time, that she said the really, the thing we have to do is to simply get off the ladder.We are never gonna get to the top of that ladder. Cause the system is not designed for that. So just get off the ladder. Don't play that game.

Yeah. And this could be my own neurodivergence, but I feel like I will write something down on my calendar and then I just won't do it.Like, I might write time for yourself, and then it comes time for myself and then I'll keep working. Or like, now I'm fighting my calendar that I've set up for myself. Now I don't want to do it

and I don't know well, and that's okay. I mean, you may need a different approach to that.Like, I know that I have a client who was recently diagnosed with adhd, but we were working on this before the diagnosis that scheduling in stuff like that didn't work for her very well. What we ended up doing was that she, she sets reminders for herself on her phone to check in with herself. So not for.Not to say, I'm going to do this particular five minute break or I'm going to do X. Not that rigidly, but the check in and just saying, okay, what do I need? And then she can respond to that and do what she needs in the moment.And sometimes that's like, oh, that means I'll get right back into the work that I was doing. Other times it's like, oh, maybe I'll do a breath practice that I know. Or maybe I'll turn on some music and dance in the kitchen, you know, like.Or I'll go pet the cat or the dog or whatever you have. Right. Like, so just sort of making like

a menu of items of things you can go to.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's someone who's been with me for a really long time.So, like, by the time we had gotten to that point, like, we had learned tons of things that. And she had those in her toolbox.

Sure.

Yeah.

Could you give advice for the listeners that, like, how you might approach, you know, planning your calendar, you know, in case, like, I know you have the calendar club and everything, but could you give us, like, some sort of base advice of what we could do? I. I personally love planning, you know, and like, I love calendars and organizing and all that kind of stuff.It's, you know, it's a part of what I do as a job. And just in my practice, I need to be like, really organized.But are there, like, go tos that you have in your sessions of like, hey, okay, when you sit down, do X, Y, Z.

Well, I always encourage people to do some kind of reflection first.

Okay.

So not jumping right into the nuts and bolts of planning your calendar, but rather encouraging people to reflect on what are your values.

Oh, wow.

What are. So that's a. That's a big picture planning thing that I have people do. I usually have them reflect on their values and then have them.I usually guide people through. You can do this, like, by just brainstorming, frankly. You don't have to do, like, the.I've come up with, like, slightly more complex ways of doing it, but, like, because some people like that, but.Or even just reflecting on, you know, what has the last month or quarter or whatever been, like, let yourself journal or draw or whatever way helps you reflect and say, okay, what was that?Like, where do I want it to go in the next month or three months or whatever chunk of time you're talking about and really getting a sense of what the vibe is of it or the feeling is it. You don't even need hardcore goals yet at that point. And then I invite people to set an intention. Like, what is the intention?Now, not everybody relates to that. Like, some people skip that part. I'll just be really honest.And that's okay if that doesn't work for you, but whatever thing works for you like to get. But I think it is important to at least pause and reflect on how am I right now, where do I want to go?And actually get yourself off the hamster wheel that you're on, like, take a step away and then you can do. I think it gets so much easier to do the other stuff after that.

I love that idea. I never do that. I just sit and start looking at my calendar and just start Planning stuff out.I never reflect about, like, how the week has gone or what I want to do this week, how the month is, like, what's going on. I don't do that. That's great advice.

Yeah. Yeah. And then in terms of the. Then once you know what your priorities are, it's a lot easier to say no to things. You can say, well, that doesn't fit.And we're not saying no often to things that are bad. Yeah, we're often saying no to things that are really good opportunities sometimes, but they just don't fit.Not just in terms of your time, but you're like, no, I'm really prioritizing. Writing a book is just a really good, concrete example. I really want to write a book.That means you're going to have to say no to a variety of other things. Or before we were on podcast, like, we were talking about my own choices.Like, I haven't been on another podcast in a hot minute because I was launching a podcast of my own and doing both of those things at the same time. That's just not my priority. Even though I love doing this and would love to be on more podcasts. It could be. I get opportunities periodically.But like I've just said, I'm not even applying to go on that podcast right now because I don't have the bandwidth. It's not necessarily because I wouldn't be a fit for it. In some cases, that's true.But mostly it's because I'm like, I don't have the bandwidth right now and it would be fun, but I'm not gonna do it. And it might even help my podcast in the long run, but it's not gonna help my podcast if I burn out by episode 10.

Exactly. Yeah.And I even just like, you know, thinking as you're talking, just like, how you can maybe even adjust, like, if, you know, you wanna see a friend, but, you know, you also need to, you know, get your nails done or whatever.Maybe your friend can come with you to get your nails done, you know, and, like, you can, like, merge these things or you have to eat dinner anyway, so maybe invite somebody over for dinner, like. But, you know, I think that that kind of stuff would come out in this reflection process. So I think that that's, like, a good idea.I just never thought to do that. I'm just. I'm always just like, diving.

You just dive into the. And I'm guilty of doing that, too. I really have to force myself periodically.You say, okay, I'm going to Think through not just the calendar and you can't see over my shoulder, but literally on this wall right here, which you can't see, is my whole annual.Like, I have one of those big whiteboard calendars, and it's right here next to me all the time, because this is where the space I work in most of the time.

I love that.

And, yeah. And so I had this big annual calendar. So I have that.But I. I also say, you know, I haven't thought about, like, where do I want to be by this time, and what do I need to do to help myself get there and to prioritize my own rest and my own wellbeing and all of those things at the same time? Like, how do I do that? And how do I get to my same money goals? How do I get to my same. To the impact I want to have in the world and get enough rest?So that's really the question I'm so interested in exploring right now, because I think it's especially hard in the times that we find ourselves in. For sure. Yeah. Feel like.

Have you said, is it you that says, like, people aren't dropping the ball, they're just carrying too many?

That's on my website, so you probably saw that.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, that's like. That's really good. It's like.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, it's so funny. Like, I feel like everybody in their mom has a whiteboard or they have these big annual calendars. It's like, everybody has so much going on.I mean, my friend has that with her and her partner. It's just the two of them, but they have that big whiteboard about where they're each gonna be like, what's going on? Who's gonna cook what?It is like, a whole, like, central station up in there.

Right. And you don't have to be that detailed or people have this happened recently.Someone came to me, and she's like, there's like, five Google calendars between all of these different. Like, mine and my jobs and the kids and my spouse and all these things. Right. Like, it's just bananas. How many.And so I. I encourage people to simplify that. I. I really don't think you need,

like, I love command center.

You don't necessarily need a command center, although some people thrive with that. Like, let me be clear. And I really like having a digital sort of dashboard and command center for my stuff.

I love it, too, honestly.

But, honestly, I do, too. But honestly, a yellow legal pad works just as well if that's worked for it.

Sure does.

And sometimes I do that to myself. I say, you know what? I just can't deal with all the tech right now.And I just start writing, like, these are the things I need to get done on some little notebook that's next to me or a scrap piece of scratch paper. Because there are some times where my brain is overloaded.And even the system I've designed for myself, which I like and I use, and it works really well most of the time. Sometimes I'm too overwhelmed for it, and so I just say, that's okay.Then we'll do it this way for a couple of days, and then maybe we'll look back to it and that'll be fine.

Yeah, I really believe that. Like, you know, the economy is really driven by, like, true crime and notebooks, you know, and so just so much.

Not a lie. And paper planners, my goodness, how much do we spend on paper planners? Friends. And I'm. I. I love a good planner. Like, let me be clear.Yeah, I've bought my share of pretty planners because I like them. But I also know that they're like, that isn't the answer to all of our time management problems. It's just not.And I get now that I've had so much time to think about how to do planning, I can't find a planner now that does what I want it to.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I really have.

Yeah.

Because none of very few of them. I shouldn't say this, like, none of them have enough journaling paper for me.

Okay.

Yeah, that's the. You can either get a journal, one that's more journal, or like bullet journal kind of format, but I sort of want both in the same thing.And that would probably mean it's like this thick. That's why, like.And if you're not watching this, like, you know, I'm saying, like a giant book thickness of planner that no one's gonna put in their bag. Right. That's why they don't make it that way. But, like, I'm goofy and I want something like that.

No, I totally understand that.This year, when I was thinking about the kind of planner I wanted, I was thinking, like, oh, man, it'd be great if I could just do everything in the one planner. And I thought about buying, like, filler pages that can go just for that.But yeah, it can get completely thick and completely ridiculous and, you know, and heavy. And then it'll be heavy, you know, and you're walking in with this, like, thick thing, and it's like, wow, is it that serious? Like, right.

Or if listeners. If you have a suggestion for planners, I'm totally open to it because you may have done more research on that than me.But every time I sort of take a look and look at the people who have done, you know, that recommend planners, I'm like, everything has maybe 75% of what I want. You know, I might get that close. And then. And then it doesn't quite have the. The one thing. And I'm like, I'm just not. Most of my stuff is so digital.I may just not even buy a digital or a paper planner this year.

Yeah, you have to experiment with it always, you know, so I totally changes. Get it? Yeah, it definitely changes. It definitely changes.

And last year I was juggling even more things than I am right now.So, like, it was really helping me every week to use a paper planner where I was like doing color coded, like, different, different colored pencils of saying, excuse me, this job, I'm doing that this time, and this is what I'm doing every week. It was bananas, actually. Like, it was too much. So I was doing that and blocking time on my digital calendar and all kinds of stuff.

Oh, my goodness.

You know, I did get stuff done, but it was a little wild. I was. And still somehow not really getting enough time to myself. So was again, simply a problem having too many things to do. That was all it was.

You know, one thing I want to ask you, you know, as we like, sort of begin to wrap up a bit, is like, a lot of people are, like, feeling overwhelmed by the state of the world, obviously. Ob like, do you have any thoughts about, like, how do we stay engaged without completely burning out while the world is acting the way it is?

That is really the $50 million question right now, Stephanie. And what I told you I wanted to talk about. So this is as much talking about. This is my impetus as much as anyone else's. Right?

Sure.

But I. Yeah, I don't think we can have conversations about time management right now without talking about the fact that authoritarianism is rising and has risen. Quite frankly, people use that phrase like it's rising authoritarianism or fascism. And I'm like, no, it's here, friends.Like, this is happening right now.And my friends in Chicago know it better than anyone because they were one of the first cities to really get hit, particularly with the ICE raids and ICE agents really taking over or trying to take over the city. And how do we do all that? Honestly, how do we do all of that stuff? Is by making time to rest.Yeah, in part, like, so getting and setting the right boundaries that you need around what level of engagement that you want. So. And that'll be different for different people in different seasons. Right. And that's okay for you to take a break and step back from time to time.By the way, I think you talked about it once, if you're okay with me talking, that you had mentioned to me, I think, in a conversation we had one time that, you know, you worked really hard on the last presidential campaign and that just said, I need to take. I have to take a step back from this.

Right. I've been living in delusion.

Yeah. I need to live.

Yeah. Not participating.

Participate in this right now. And I'm not. Or I'm choosing not to participate this in right now. I think those are very valid choices.I mean, it goes back to what we're talking about, volunteerism. Right. Like, we all need to be doing our tiny part so that no one feels like they're doing 90% of the work.

Yeah.

No one needs to feel that way. And we are conditioned, again, to feel like we're failing if we're not doing all the things. So how are you doing the thing?Like, how are you doing what you're doing in your life? That is a way of pushing back against that. There's something you're doing. There's things that you're doing.I think, you know, this radio show and podcast is part of that. Right. That is part of your thing that you do to push back against that.Making space for more generative, creative conversations, I think is crucial right now, because if we don't have imaginations, we are not gonna get our way out of this.And we also can't really have good imaginations without rest, because I don't know about you, but I'm not at my most creative when I'm exhausted, generally speaking. And I need. Even if it's not like, sleep, people often think of sleep as being the only form of rest, which it isn't. There's lots of forms of rest.Well, I often teach people the seven types of rest from Sandra Dalton Smith's book Sacred Restaurant. And she has seven of them. And I'll try to remember them all.They're physical rest, mental rest, sensory rest, which means sort of like getting off screens and, you know, just anything that's sort of stimulating your senses, like trying to take time away from that creative rest. So something that's creative to you, that's generative social rest. So that's. That Time with your friends and things like that. There's, that's five.And emotional rest and spiritual rest. Oh, I got em all that set you go, hey. So there's all those, those are categories of rest. But there's all kinds of suggestions.I know that I don't do this anymore, but I, for a variety of reasons, but for, I don't know, seven or eight years I trained for half marathons and triathlons, which I loved doing. And here's the thing, part of what I loved about it was that.Or really the whole thing I loved about it was that it was something completely different than what I did for work. It helped me so. And I did it with groups.So I had these, I had these buddies at the pool that I swam with that didn't really care what I did for a living. We did sometimes talk about our jobs and it was fun to like not fun or it was useful I think to get other perspectives on what we did.But largely we were just talking about our swim stroke or the next bike gear that we were gonna buy or the, you know, just kind of talking about stuff that's really nonsense in our lives, you know. You know, a bunch of middle aged swimmers who aren't going to win anything is really.Well, with a couple of exceptions, we had some really exceptional athletes in there. But most of us are like just doing this slowly and because we enjoyed it and whatever. Like so. But I'm a slow runner and a slow swimmer.But what's nice about that is that that's a lot of time for your brain to unplug. And my best ideas for things usually came when I was not trying to do things.

Yeah.

You know, so I can't even tell you how many times like I would actually stop sometimes on the trail and like put something in a note. Like on my phone I didn't have a notebook. I didn't have a physical notebook with me, of course, you know, so I would like pull up my.But I did on my phone cause I was usually listening to music or a podcast and like I would type in there like I need to remember, you know, like for later.

They're like, Nicole's not trying to win a race. She over here on her phone.

Super wonderful.

Exactly.

No, I was not there to win anything but like find that thing. Like find those things. It doesn't have to be that dramatic. I don't have bandwidth or time or my body doesn't want to do that anymore.But like, but taking a walk is a really good example of that, you know, or if you're somebody, what are your hobbies that you like to do? Do you like to garden? Do you, you know, what are the things you're really into? That's like sort of not your regular thing.

Shooting. Shoot pool. Shoot pool.

Shoot pool. I love. That's a great example. Yeah. Because that's like thinking in a different way, probably. Right. And it's hanging out with friends.That's a social thing a lot of the time.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, shoot pool with your friends. That's social rest and possibly physical or creative rest, depending on how that works for you. So, like, engaging that kind of stuff.And I think, you know, not feeling guilty, like letting.Giving yourself permission to take that time away and not feeling guilty about it, and then you're gonna come back rested and refreshed and you're like, okay, now I can go.I have the bandwidth and energy to go to that protest or to do some sort of, you know, in the next election cycle, I can show up and do some door knocking again. And then also just saying, I don't have to do it all I can do door knocking in this election for five hours, let's say.But you don't have to do it every weekend for eight hours a day.

Right.

Smaller chunks. You don't have to do all of it. Let other people do their part, too. And if we all do our part, I'm very convinced we'll get somewhere.And it just may not be. We have to let go of the idea that we are the only ones who can do it or we are the only ones who will do it. Because it's not true. It's not.It does feel that way. And because I think what this world that we're living in wants to convince us of is that we're alone.There's no one who's like us, and that it's hopeless.

Yeah.

And by doing our little part and saying, I have my part to do and I'm going to do it right now and living into that and not overdoing it, but doing that much like, hey, I really think this is my part to play and do it, like, with as much time as you have to give and in a way that doesn't completely tap and drain your energy. So we don't necessarily have to be on so many of those cycles of, like, oh, I do all the things, all the things, all the things. And then I burn out.And then I have to take a huge amount of time to step back.

Yeah.

And again, I'm not faulting anyone for taking big steps back and there's times for that, but maybe we can get in a cycle where we're just not doing quite so much and we don't have that happen in the first place.

Yeah, I love that. And Heal the World by Michael Jackson is playing in my head right now. I feel, I just feel that I'll

have to play that when we get done here.

Yes. Nicole, thank you so much for talking with us today.For more information about you and the work that you're doing, Calm Calendar Club, where can we go?

Yeah, well, you can.The main place to find information about me would be on my website, which is defythetrend.com and then if you're interested in the Calm Calendar Calendar Club, which we talked a lot about, just go to my website, defythetrend.com calm calendar thank

you so much and thank you listener for being with us today and I hope you enjoy the rest of your Saturday. That's a wrap on another episode of nosey AF Conversations about art, activism and social change. I'm your host, Stephanie Graham.If you enjoy today's conversation, please leave a five star rating and review. Wherever you are listening to the show, it helps new listeners discover it and say, hey, if these folks like this show, maybe I will love it too.Check out full show notes and transcripts@nosyaaf.com and while you're there, sign up for nosey AF Dispatch, a newsletter where every month I send a roundup of episodes, behind the scenes stories, studio tales and interesting finds straight to your inbox. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for listening and as always, stay curious and take care. Bye.