Why Welcoming Everyone Gets Complicated with Garland Fuller

Hey, friends.Welcome. And welcome back to noseyAF conversations about art, activism and social change.I am your host and friend, Stephanie Graham, and today's guest has one of the best titles ever. They are a culture consultant. Like, how chic and cool is that? I totally want people to consult me for culture. Like, I want to be a culture consultant.I am joined by Garland Fuller, who is a systems thinker and founder of Third Space Academy.And we are going to have a conversation about values, third Spaces, leadership, and how people decide whether something actually feels like it's for them.This conversation hits really close to home for me since last year I participated in a fellowship called the Change Collective, where I began developing a civic action plan towards building a pop up cinema project in my neighborhood on the south side of Chicago. And so many of the questions that Garland raises about culture, culture, belonging and intention have been living in my brain.So we talk invisible culture, community dynamics, and why. The whole idea of I want everyone to come is much more trickier than it sounds.So, per usual, let's get into our theme music and let's get into our conversation with Garland Fuller. Welcome to noseyAF Gotta get up, get up, tell the whole world you a winner, winner Vision of a car with a missing in the car what's it doing? How you doing?Doing what you're doing and who you are Flex yourself, impress yourself Check yourself, don't wreck yourself if you know me then you know that I'll be knowing what's up. Hey, Stephanie. Graham is nosy. Well, Garland, welcome to noseyAF

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Yes.

I'm so happy to have you here as well. I think you have one of the coolest job titles as culture consultant because really, what an honor.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's the beauty. When you have your own business, you can call yourself queen of the world if you want.

Right. That's a good title, too. So wait, how does one become a culture consultant outside of just titling themselves that?

Yeah, so I started. I'd say the way I look atwork, the way I look at people, everything is in a system. Sometimes we're not aware that we are in a system. Sometimes we are acutely aware that we are in a system. And so the system works in the way it does.And what I find is that the culture, meaning the things that we put value on, so that's sometimes our values, our mission statement, how we do business with each other, how we talk to each other, all of those things are, I feel like the invisible thing that is culture. And some organizations are very much clear on their culture, how they operate. They make an effort every day to live their values.They treat people in the way that their values states. And then some organizations, it's on paper, we love it, it stays there.And we don't sometimes walk and talk our values. And so the big part of the work that I do is, are we walking the talk?Are we taking these ideas like creativity, integrity, excellence, service, all of the things that you've heard organizations say there about, are we actually living them? And how are we putting those into practice in our everyday business? How we lead people, how we promote people, how we recruit people.I call it my People Place program. Like, how are we putting this together? And so for me, culture is sometimes the unseen. However you feel it, you feel it very, very clearly. Yeah.

You know, it seems like a lot of organizations say, oh, we focus on, like, service and integrity. Is there ever anybody that's like, okay, can you pick another word to say?

I feel like some organizations actually mean it, and some are so client focused, they're thinking about, what would a client want to hear? Would a client sign up with us if they knew we had this as our values? And some of them, I feel like everyone does them.The fact that you're stating it is, I don't want to say obvious, but it's like, okay, so how is your service any different than anyone else's service?Yeah, I feel like there are some organizations that do reset those on a regular basis, which you should, because sometimes we, you know, we find them, they were that way. We keep them, but the organization has evolved, everything's changed.But we still keep these same values because this was what we were founded on or whatnot. But so much has changed since. So I also find that working with organizations when they realize our values are not aligned anymore.We started this way maybe 20, 30, 50 years ago, and who we are now and who we need to be to be successful going forward doesn't align anymore with what we said we used to do or be.

Yeah, it always makes me seem like that, like, organizations, they always have to make sure that their values are positive. But I guess, like. Yeah, it just comes off positive always, I guess. Can anybody have, like, a. Like, their values are like. No women.

I mean, so it's interesting because values are supposed to be the thing that embodies who you say you are, meaning I always say your values are kind of like a litmus test. So if you say, you know, we are about integrity, Then it means, are we going to do something even though it makes us more money?However, from an integrity standpoint, we could do something different that would make us less money, but it's better for the client. Should we just do what's going to make us more money even though it's not in an integrity fashion?And so that's when you're starting to see, okay, do we actually hold that up? Or I find that it also can be things you want to embody.So creativity, maybe innovation, maybe you desire for it to be a place where people have a sense of autonomy over what it is they do.So creativity maybe gives you a sense of, I have some agency and I can create something here and I am encouraged to do that versus we keep doing it the same way. I don't want to hear any new ideas. I don't want you to try to come up with something new. I just like you to just keep doing what we're already doing.So it's usually positive because I think it's aspirational.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Because then it always gives yourself something to measure up to or like to check yourself against.

Yes.

Yeah. So you mentioned your, like, people place program. That seems like that's something that's really central to your work.Can you like, break down what that means and how it shapes the academy that you founded Third Space Academy? Like, how does that shape Third Space Academy's vision?

Yeah.So in my many years of working with people and talent and organizations, I came to see that when I was building programs, when I was building initiatives, when I was looking at how to make a space more intentional, again, looking at culture, how do we embed certain things into what we're doing? The three things that stood out for me that I noticed I kind of go back to all the time, is people, meaning who are we building for?What are the things that we want to build for a specific group of people, Whether that is a generation of people, whether that is women, whether that is black and brown people, lgbtq, whether it is leaders, people who hold a certain title versus entry level folks who are just getting started sometimes. So when you look at people from a who am I serving? You start to realize everyone has different needs.When you have different needs for that group and you really ask the questions to ensure that you're understanding what their needs are, you can start to create a better place and a better program. Place for me is more than physical space. Physical space is important.However, it's also the psychological space that you're holding it's the space that you are looking at. How do I infuse this and make this a place that people feel welcome, feel a sense of belonging, feel a sense of connection?And how you do that, for me, is through your programming.Your programming is key because if you are not building programming with your people and your place in mind, you're not taking into consideration the information that you're being given. So for me, Third Space Academy came out of how do I build programs? How do I build initiatives?When I gather people and I want them to feel like this is a space for them, what are the things that I look at and go through to ensure that they feel like this is a place for them to actually show up, feel seen, want to participate? And that's, I think, a big part of third spaces. As you know, third spaces are a space that isn't home. It's not work.It's kind of this third space where you're connecting with people, you're conversing, you're sharing ideas, you're possibly learning something new. It can be anything from, you know, a library, a garden, a cafe. It can be a silent book club.It can be your favorite record shop that you go to that does new Listening Fridays, and everybody comes to listen to the new music that the record shop gets. I mean, it's those. The places that kind of remind you. I feel like the things that you love, that you're special interests sometimes.It could be something you're interested in, you haven't done before, and you're wanting to kind of discover or learn.What I've noticed is our third spaces have either become very difficult to find because there's just not enough of them, or accessibility issues with, you know, sometimes things cost money to participate in. And some things I think, have become very exclusive.We talked about exclusivity, like, you know, your country club or your Soho house or your whatever place where the price point is there to ensure that certain groups of people are able to be there.

Those are third spaces, too.

Yeah. And so those are a little bit different in terms of their values, whatthey are saying they want their members to feel. But it's a third space nevertheless.I just think when we're thinking about it is how can we ensure that we're capturing the essence of the group or groups of people that we want to include and have be present in, in the spaces that we are creating. Yeah.

How do you respond to folks like, when you talk about people and they say, garland, I want everybody to come that's so tricky.

Yes.

But people mean it. They mean it.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I'll what I call them like all age spaces and I feel like we don't have enough of those.Because it's interesting when I travel to other parts of the world and you see the young and the old and there's not a sense of a difference between a group of people and families. Like everyone can come and it's usually in big courtyard, plaza, marketplace type spaces.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because they sometimes don't even say all ages just by virtue of the fact that they're there in a common space. It automatically means everyone is invited.

Yeah.

I feel like in America we have stratified everything so that we can target the niche, the group, brand it in a certain way so that we know these are people that I am looking to bring in. So even the photos that we use to advertise the thing are trying to send a message on who is it that this is supposed to attract.I know myself when I think about all. You still know who your like primary group that you want to have at this thing. You know your target group that you want. You can have all people.They may not be all at the same time because different people have different needs.And so I think about if you're catering something to singles between the ages of 30 and 40 years old, they are not going to want to be in certain spaces where families are between the ages of 30 and 40 years old. Whether alcohol is served, whether it gets loud, whether things are accessible for children to use.Like when people are in this space, they're going to be there to do certain things. And so when you think about that all of these things factor, it's not going to be a space for everyone.But I feel like there are times where we do have all age spaces. So like a farmer's market. Any and everyone can come to a farmer's market, right?

Yeah.

If you have some type of outdoor run, walk, club, anybody can come to that. If it's some type of, you know, possibly if you specifically want to tell people that it's all ages, you can put all ages there.But be cognizant if someone comes with a 6 month old baby and a 75 year old woman or man or someone who has ability needs, you're able to roll with the punches of those needs.

Yeah.

And so it's very much sometimes not easy to do all age depending on what it is. But it's definitely, I think, aspirational. It's aspirational to want to have everyone there.I mean, this is why people create certain spaces where they take into consideration different things and have things in place in order to ensure that it's easy for particular groups of people.

Yeah. Listening to you talk, I think just thinking about the imagery of how you might promote what you have going on your programs makes so much sense.So like, for example, I've been working on this micro cinema and I feel like if I have it in my neighborhood, you know, that of course would be all ages. But if it's a night that I want to play Poetic justice, clearly, maybe that's not something you bring your six year old to.But if we have like Disney, like Little Mermaid, we're doing like all Disney films like on the weekends, just like by, you know, probably naming of the title, people will know. Or maybe I'd have to state because maybe people might not be able to get a sitter and they would bring their baby to Poetic Justice. I don't know.So I'd have to think about that. Yeah.

Yeah. And. Or sometimes it's having something for the kids there.

Oh.

So that way there is something to keep them engaged. So maybe it's a double feature. The kids are watching one thing, the parents are watching another.

Yeah.

Or it might be, you know, something where, I mean, I'm big on like asking parents what they want.

Sure.

Because I feel like some people are like, depending on the age of the child will be like, you know, if you have a teenager, they might watch it together. If you have a little one, like five, six, maybe not time of day.Like if it's five to nine versus seven to eleven, those are two different time frames. So it depends.I do think that doing all age things helps to create a stronger community because you start to realize all of the people that are in your neighborhood.

Yes.

And so you're able to create more opportunities for them to engage and intersect in spaces that they normally may not. Yeah, yeah.

Like, I know it's such a great opportunity to learn your neighbors. Right. Like for example, my neighborhood, we just had a taco party. Like one of our neighbors just threw it at his house.And there were so many kids here who were graduating from college who I've never seen. Like, there's the group that I always see out and about that I'll talk to. But then I'm like, oh my gosh, where are you guys? Like, I had no idea.And they were able to talk to some of the other adults about where they're going to school. Maybe somebody knows a connection And I'm like, I'm so glad that they had this taco party just for simple fact of knowing who lives here.

Yeah.

You know, some of these cities are big. Some of these neighborhoods are just so big. And it's like you have no idea who's around.

I mean, what I've noticed in this country is that we have, especially in a city like Los Angeles, where I am very car centered place, people jump in their cars, jump on the highway, go to wherever they need to go. And so honestly, you don't have to know your neighbors unless you have a neighborhood that has that kind of feel.And you're, you know, you have neighborhood watch or you have some type of homeowners association or some means of people actually talking to their neighbors. You can live in a city with a variety of people, whether it's an apartment or a home, and not know who's living next door to you at all.

Yeah, it's so true.

Which is crazy.

It is super crazy. Yeah, it's so bizarre because it's like we're literally right next door to each other.I've lived in space like that where I have no idea who my neighbors are. Now I know my neighbors, but yeah, it's bizarre. And we'll live there for years and barely know each other.But how did your own background and experience influence the direction of third space?

Yeah, I started, I'd say I've always been someone who, if I look back, I've always been a joiner. I am the person who's like, if there's something going on and they say, come out or come on. I'm like, sure, let's go. I'll go, yeah.Without needing very much, I mean, basic information.But you know, some people are much more hesitant to say, yes, yes, I am a joiner and I'll just join and see what it is and then discern if it's something I want to do.And so I noticed looking back over my life, like I'm always involved in something, whether it is, you know, was a track team in high school, it was the national association of Black Accountants. In college. I also worked and kind of had a, I guess a role at the University Health Services as a peer educator.And so I'm the person who is always like, oh, I'm interested, like, let me know. And then once I get involved, I'm like, let me take a leadership position.And so because I have ideas, I have thoughts, I see that this could be different or better, or I have something I'd like To see happen.And so I have always been this person, Even while I, you know, was working full time, I started becoming involved in an organization, tutoring kids at one point, just as a community service. And doing that kind of stuff has always been a part of who I am.And then when I became a board member for an organization recently, the African American Real Estate Professionals of Los Angeles, I had an opportunity to go, I feel like, full, raise your hand and

full, like, do some cool stuff.

And growing an organization that was very. We had maybe like, 60 people who would regularly come together, but not a full trade organization with members and membership dues and all of this.And I had an experience that let me know that this could be bigger than a lot of people thought it could be, and was actively engaged in seeing this vision that I had come to fruition and taking the time outside of work to do it, because I knew it was going to be something really cool. And so in building this organization over three years, getting it to, like, 400 members, getting sponsors.

Wow. Getting a whole lot of stuff, like going building a website.

I mean, I learned a ton of stuff.

I realized I like to do this work.

Like, this is the work that makes me feel alive. This is the work that makes me want to help other people find that vision that they have of what they want something to be.

And let's go and figure out how

to get there, how to build it, how to get you where you want to go.

And so if I could do that, I was like, well, what else can I do? Like, yeah, where else can this go? I love that somebody's like, we got the seed. And you're like, and I got the water, and I got the rake, and I got the hoe. I'm gonna take care of it.

And I worked with a lot of

people, and, you know, our board was at the time, I think they were like, really? You think so? And I was like, yes. And I was like, I'll show you what I know how to do. And they were like, okay, we'll do this and we'll do that.So they trusted me to do my part, which was like, I'm the people strategy expert. Like, how do we get people to come in and do things? And how do we encourage them to become involved?And how do we create a flywheel where they're, like, telling other people about it and then bringing other people to join?And so I wouldn't say all of it was me, but I feel, like the ability to see that there was something possible and then make Steps towards recognizing that we could do it. I realized that this could be something major and I was like, let's go.And so that's, I think, what's inspired me to start to work with Third Space Academy and work with organizations. Because I can see sometimes, okay, this is what you want to do. Okay, let's, let's work towards that.But also, have you considered I'm looking at what's happening in your neighborhood? Like there are people that you aren't bringing in. Because that's another thing. Who's missing? I always ask a lot about who's missing, who's not here. Yeah.

And oftentimes it's folks that are like right around. But for whatever reason, the messaging or, you know, everyone's not digital.There's some folks of a certain generation that still love to get something in the mail or like to get an email. And so you're looking at everything and thinking, okay, how are we going to get everyone? If that's what you'd like, how do we get everyone out?

Yeah, exactly. As you were talking, I was like, wow, garland's like a cheerleader for folks.But then maybe not, because then you came through it like the strategic part, like, well, what else? You know, so then it's like not a coach, but maybe a coach, but consultant.

A consultant. I mean, I feel like there's some coaching in what I do. I feel like the term coach has been co opted by like so many things.

I swear it's like the, it's like the new corner boy. It's the new hustle. It really is. I'm a coach. I'm like, oh my gosh.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand it. I feel like it is very much, I mean, when you.Again, I, I think back to my time running track and cross country and literally my coach was making sure that I was doing the things I needed to do to strengthen and condition my body in order to perform when I need to perform.So making sure I was going to the gym and doing the proper exercises, making sure I was doing the proper, you know, running practices and techniques in order for me to. And so when I think about coaching, you're still doing the work.Like the person who is hiring the coach or like they're there to ensure that you're not hurting yourself, that you're not damaging anything. They're making sure that your goals are what you say they are and that you're hitting them and reaching them. But they can't win the race for you.You still have to be out there practicing and hooping it up or whatever it is. And so from that standpoint, yes, there is some coaching there. It's a lot of listening.With coaching, you know, I'm telling you what I'm hearing you say back at you and then encouraging you to ask some questions and think through it further. I sometimes know the answer, but I need you to know the answer.And then sometimes I know the answer, and if you're kind of like scared to say it, I'll say it.

Okay.

Right. But for the most part, it's very much. I mean, there is some coaching there, but a lot of it, I feel like is. What is the information telling us?Yeah, I don't like, you know, throwing

my hand up in the wind and seeing which way it blows.

That's a part of it. That is a part.

But also like, what information do we have available to us that we can use to infer who our target group is or who we aren't targeting or what we would love to do more of that we just haven't made an effort to do, or what we have been doing, but that hasn't been working and we may need to consider something else.

Yeah.

And so that's the work that I feel like. I feel like I'm an investigator, a little bit investigative, a little bit of a cultural sociology type person.Like, I used to love sociology classes in college because I was so fascinated that different groups had different things. And you're just like, what? This is how this group works. And when I travel, it's always like, this is another way of doing this.

Yeah, yeah.

Nothing diff, you know, not bad, not good.Just different, you know, it also really quick side note, when you were doing track and field, was your coach, did they do that for free? Like. Cause you were just a part of the team or were they paid? Cause I think like.

But paid by you and your family. No, by the school.

Right.

Yeah.

It seems like for the student, that's their last opportunity to get like free coaching. Outside of that, baby, it's all paid. You got to like pay for support kind of.

I mean, I feel like you can do. I mean, I do coaching programs with people.

Yeah.

So I think the cost goes down when you are doing it in a group. I like doing it in a group because I think community, again, I believe in.

Yeah.

The power of learning together. I also believe that people don't feel alone when they realize someone else is going through a change or a transformation of some sort. Oh, wow.You felt that Way too. I felt that way too. There's a sense of resonance and recognition sometimes that you can't see in yourself, but you can see in someone else for sure.When you're. What do they say? When you're in the frame, you can't see the picture. Right. When you look at someone else's picture, you can see everything.

Yeah.

So there's something really special. I love coaching people who want to be pushed or know that something's not right.

Yeah.

But it's. I like doing it in a group, which is why the Third Space Academy is there.Because when you're a leader, a change maker, you're having to put the things together. It can be very thankless. People just show up to stuff.

Things happen.

Nobody knows the amount of planning and coordinating and organizing that happened. They just show up to the event and they're like, this is great. And you're like, wait a minute, like I've been working on this thing for a month. Like.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It reminds me of. I remember one time I went, I wonder if this lady is still consulting.But she was a creative consultant and usually like to work with her one on one was really expensive. But she opened up the doors for like photographers who had been doing this maybe like one to three years.We could each pay her $400 and then we could all work with her together. And it was only maybe six of us and she took maybe like 30 minutes with each of us.And so she would work with us, but we got to listen to her talk to the other person and then also got to chime in on like our own experiences. She would ask the group questions and it was really, really helpful.Sort of going to your point of like working in groups because I thought that that also helped me like learn how to talk about photography more. Learn how to talk about like the business of photography more. And at the end I was like, I'm so glad I did that.And like we like still stayed in touch with my cohort members, you know. And she actually even enjoyed it. Cause that was her first time doing something like that.Cause otherwise if she wouldn't have done it, I would never have been able to work with her. So I really, really like that.So yeah, I think that Third Space Academy being able, like to work in a group is really beneficial just because you get to hear other people's experiences and participate in the conversations about it as well. Yeah.

I don't think we, after we leave college or after we leave school, whatever formal school that you've had I feel like you now have to go find spaces to learn.

Yeah, we just out here, otherwise we're.

Yeah, we're just, you know, you can just stay where you're at.

Yeah. So you've also built the Community impact collective, which you describe as a digital sanctuary for femmes who are done trying to fit into boxes.And I'm just so curious, like, what inspired this phase?

Yeah, so when I started doing consulting on my own, I realized it came very quickly.If you don't have a workplace that you go to every day to be around other creatives, other coaches, other leadership development folks, it can feel very isolating. And so you're doing your work, you've got your things that you're doing, you're putting out.But if you don't have your group of people who also have the same, you know, challenges, and depending on where you are in the lifecycle of your business, you know, the one to five year mark I hear is like, it's just uphill. It can feel difficult.You need people to talk to, to talk you off of the ledge from time to time because you're like, I don't know that I can do this. This is so hard. Why did I say that I wanted to do this? This is crazy.And then you've got folks who, you know, are further along and they are great at helping you to see, like I said, the picture when you're in it and sometimes are able to tell

you, hey, you know, I've tried this,

or maybe you want to try that,

or just listen to you and say, have you considered. And also I find that we all

are using tools for different things. And so if someone has found a tool that they have found to be helpful in getting something done, you're like, oh, that maybe I want to try that.

And so it can be, I think, more of a place for when you are wanting to make an impact, when you are building your own third space, if you have your own business and you're looking to ensure that you have a group of people to just touch base with.We have something called show and tell Mondays, where, like, we're in kindergarten, where, you know, you come and you show and you tell about what you're working on or what you'd like accountability. Love that.Because I find that sometimes, you know, you're working on your little thing over here and it's like, well, show people. Tell them about it, like. And this is when you realize, oh, I probably shouldn't be talking about it like that.Maybe I should talk about it like this instead. Or someone says, you know, I know someone who does something that's adjacent to that.

You should.

Maybe you want to talk to them because they may have clients that you guys can, you know, consider together or partner on something. And so there's just a sense. What I have seen with women in this space is that we are far more collaborative and wanting to help each

other and wanting to see other people be successful than sometimes when I talk to men, I find that sometimes they're very closed with what they're doing. They're not as transparent around, you know, what's working for them.Um, you sometimes aren't able to get them to tell you how they did something, not because you want to take anything from them, just to understand how something works.

Yeah.

And I find that women are far more. Oh, let me tell you. Let me tell you what happened to me. Or. Oh, yeah, I tried that. You know, it worked.But then when I got to this part of my business, it just wasn't as effective anymore, so I moved over and did this instead of. And so there's a sense of sharing.

Yeah.

That I find to be so huge in a building.If you're any kind of building environment where you're building something or you're creating something, you just want to feel like you're a part of something other than what you're working on. And so this community is an opportunity to be with other people, learning, growing, co creating. It's not very overwhelming.But if you say, hey, you know, like, I had a conversation yesterday with a member, and she's like, you know, I'm working on a book, and I would really like for us to like, maybe once a month meet up and like, write. And I was like, yeah, okay, I can get behind that. So we might have a writing space in a minute.So it's one of those what members need, and we work together to put it together. I mean, I'm the facilitator, the guide, but I am not the one idea, one thing person.

Yeah.

I feel like if it works for everyone and we can agree to some sense of this is what it is, then we do it. If it's only for me, and I do it for myself, then that's what it is.

Yeah. How do you, like, allow yourself to sort of, like, in facilitation, it seems like you have to let go and, like, be generous. How do you do that?

Yeah, I mean, I. I think. I think about the whole. Okay, you have to think about the bigger group, and there's A lot of empathy. I'm very empathetic.Probably too much, however, for me.

Just like, naturally. You are naturally. Okay.

Naturally empathetic. I also am very. I can sense when people. Like, I'm the person who. Your tone changes, and I can tell something's up.

Ah. Okay.

And so I can sense when people are like, something's not right or something's off. And so when I do group facilitation, I'm watching a lot of what's happening. I'm present. I have a plan.I always go into the classroom or a group with a plan. However, I'm aware that. And this maybe is the teacher part of me.If it's not resonating, if you're not getting it, like, there's a group of people here that's like, we will stop and go through it and then get back on the plan. I'm not going to steamroll through the thing to get it done.

Yeah.

I can figure out a way, because I made the plan to get it through, to get us where we need to go at the end.

Yeah.

And I find that you do have to be a little open.I don't do huge classes either, too, because I think when you're doing this type of work, you want to ensure that you're present for the group of people. So, like, hundreds and hundreds. Like, at that point, I'm, you know, no one's listening. You're delivering things.But I do feel like with facilitation, you kind of are meeting people where they're at, and you don't ever know who's coming with what. Yeah.

And this is just something that you could just, like, guide just off your experience, you know, that. Or, like, have you taken, like, an improv class or anything?

You know, I haven't taken an improv class. It's funny because my child is a theater kid.

Oh, really?

And so I've learned a lot more about that world. Yeah. Watching her or being, you know, involved with the things that she's doing.And I think I learned how to do this when I was a peer educator because they trained us to, like, not respond. Alarming.

Yeah.

We would have to go into the health center. And this would be women between the ages of 18 and 22. Some have never had a gynecological exam.Some, you know, culturally talking about sex or sexual activity is taboo.And so I went through six months of learning not only about how to, like, do this, but also learning about all of the things that fall under sexual activity. The taboo topics like orientation. Gender identity.And I remember coming out of that and thinking, wow, like, there's so much, like, one I didn't know about, but two. Like, anything is possible. Like.

Yeah.

And so when I learned how to do that, I realized you can't be asking, like, you just even how you ask a question.

Yeah.

Seriously, does it need to have too much? You know, it's more. So curious, like, so how. Or tell me more. Can you explain what.Like, so it's more you trying to understand than you asking them to understand your position. And I think that's a huge part of the learning.

And.

And I'm still learning. I mean, this thing, it doesn't stop. Sure. You're never aware of everything.

Yeah.

And I think that's probably part of the curiosity is like, ooh, what else is out there?

Yeah, it's always. I did a fellowship where my friend Joe led the fellowship, and it was like, a cohort of people, and he has a theater background.And it always made me wonder, like, because he was very open, like, able to pivot easily, like, if a conversation maybe went somewhere, and he had a curriculum to follow for the day, but, like, if it went somewhere, he easily was able to guide that. And he's an educator as well, so there's probably that in there as well. But I was just like, wow.I'm always just, like, the facilitators that can, like, bring things in and then, like, being able to let things go, let ideas go, bring ideas in, share ideas, and, like, not hold things in. Because I feel like my training in film school, you always went to.If I had an idea about how to do something, I would tell my boss, and now it's my boss's idea, and that boss would present it to their boss, and now it's their idea, you know, and it was rare that a boss would be like, oh, Stephanie had this great idea that, you know, so, like, it would always be, like, presented as, you know, you always pushed your idea up into the next person. So I've always. Am just like. I think it's very beautiful, like, the flow of it, of facilitation and, like, leading conversations. So. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think stopping or, like, pausing to address something builds more trust.

Yeah.

It also builds more growth and development, I think, because I feel like you have to. And. And it's not.You can't stop for any and everything all the time, but there's times when you can sense something's not landing or something's not working. Right here. I can keep going or I can just stop and address it or stop and ask questions.And the quizzical faces, I think when you're a facilitator or a teacher, the faces, they're like, what? What are you saying? You're like, okay, I need to stop. Or sometimes you just go to that particular student and you're saying, hey, I saw your face.I noticed that you weren't looking very like, do you have some questions?And so you can also just isolate to a specific student if it's something where you're like, I don't necessarily need to stop the whole class for this, but, like, it is. And I think I've seen some people who, like, 25, 30 plus years teach. I call them the master teachers.

Yeah, they're good.

I mean, they are. I've seen some teachers that I'm like, wow. Like, you are like, this is next level. Your ability to bring it back around.You teach it three different ways. You're able to then do small group. Go to the group that you get the people, like, full engagement the whole time.Everybody is like, on firing and like, yes. And they come back every week with more. Or they show up. You know, you're good when they show up, office hours or after.Or like, they're trying to find you. You're like, oh, so you're really into what I'm teaching. Wow, it's impressive.

I remember I had a Pilates instructor who would always check people for their faces. They'd be like, marilyn, why are you making that face? What's going on? What's hurting Stephanie? She's like, who's making faces? Like, who's.Who wants to make a face? But you guys are scared I'm going to call your name. Because she would call them the class. She'd be like, stephanie, why are you making a face?It's like, what hurts?

Oh, no.

Yeah.

I mean, hey, yeah, but she'll be right.

Like, we would always be hurting, obviously, like, from holding a pose too long or whatever. But, yeah, Mimi. So, yeah, you saying faces reminded me of her, because that's really funny.So wait, so your two spaces, like Community Impact Collective and Third Space Academy, like, how do they compliment one another?

Yeah.So Community Impact Collective, I started at the beginning of this year, and within the community, Third Space Academy is one of the, you know, coaching spaces that we have there. They go together. Because I knew I had to create a course, but I didn't want it to be freestanding.There's so many courses out there and programs and things, and I feel like, as I said, as I said, doing things in community is more important.

Yeah.

And so the Community Impact Collective was started first as a space to just bring the people together and bring the people in and just to find out, you know, what do you want from this space and what is it that

is top of mind for you? And then the Third Space Academy honestly

came to me, like, you need to create this space to show people how you do what you do. And I was like, do I though? And I was like, actually, I do.

Because what I've been told over and over is you want to come back here. Like, when I am involved in the

programming, people want to come back here.

There's this energy of, like, this was really great.

You can feel it. You can get this sense that someone was thinking about the details and that.

And it's not just like event planning. I am not an event planner. I am not an event producer.It's very much the intentionality and making sure that your people, your place and your program are ready to receive the vision that you have for your space, for your initiative, for whatever it is. And so that's how they complement each other.

I'm thinking about, for Third Space Academy, working specifically with organizations, whether it's arts and culture organizations, youth organizations, organizations where maybe you haven't done any updating in a while, you've kind of let it grow stale. You maybe are going off of the legacy of your name, but nobody else really has a sense of what you're doing anymore. Those are the organizations.You know, I want to say bring them into the 21st century, but.

Right, right, right.

Because I think there are a lot of folks that want to join things, but if they don't know that you're there or you're not speaking their language so that they feel like they're welcome, then you're dwindling membership or your dwindling mission is. Isn't getting out there because it's just not connecting and reaching the people who need to see it.So I've worked with a few organizations where they need a refresh.

Yeah.

And it's always interesting because it's kind of an adapt or die situation.

Oh, wow.

Like, if you don't do something, this organization may not be here because the next generation that needs to take over this organization isn't in your current membership population. I mean, I think about churches a lot.

Yes. That's what I was just thinking about

as you said that. Yes. Yeah, I think about churches a lot

because I think they have.

I mean, when you think about the civil rights movement when you think about how they have been the cornerstone of so many spaces of transformation, resistance. Our churches are not what they used to be.

Yeah.

And so there's opportunity there to make them not what they used to be, but something else.

Yeah.I was listening to a podcast where a woman was talking about that, where she's like, hey, you know that church that has your grandma's friends, like, consider staying there for a little bit and seeing what you can make it be.It's an opportunity, you know, instead of trying to, like, run to the next church that has the full fledged, colorful concerts every Sunday, you know, see what you can do right where you are, you know.

Yeah.

You know, thinking about that. If someone wanted to create a third space, like in a literal, physical sense, where should they begin?

I'm big on mission, vision, values. I feel like you gotta know your why real. Like that should be crystal clear. Because then when you know your why, you have something to start with.You have your compass.Because when you know your why, you're able to then say, okay, this is what we need to build, or this is where we need to do it, or this is how we need to work this in. You don't sometimes have to have a physical space.I know there are a lot of spaces that already exist, and it's more of, can you create a partnership with that space or do you have access to community spaces? Whether that's, you know, a YMCA or a church or, you know, you do something in your neighborhood, just meeting up with people.It doesn't have to be anything crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

And start small. I tell people, start small. I know everybody wants it to turn into a raving success, but oftentimes things start small.If you honestly can get 10 to 12 people to show up to your thing, like, pat yourself on the good amount.

Yeah, absolutely.And then my other question would be, are there strategies for community building that work across very different industries and sizes of organizations?

I think surveying as a strategy. I'm a big fan of surveying because I need information and data to make a decision.And so when you do a survey, and specifically for whatever it is, if it's, you know, engagement to try to see what people like want to do, or if it is around culture or it might be around, you know, we have some programming ideas and initiatives we want to roll out, but maybe we need to figure out which ones to prioritize. Or maybe we need to just decide if this is even a something that you all would be interested in. I'M big on surveying.I like focus groups, depending on who the groups are.Because when you're saying I want something for everyone, I feel like when you have focus groups that are specific to certain identities, you realize this whole I want something for everyone doesn't sometimes work because everyone wants different things.

Yeah.

And so getting information, I think, is huge.I find working with a third party or someone outside is always great because confidential anonymous surveying is when you really get people to tell you how they feel.If they feel like you can trace the information back to them, they may not tell you the whole truth because they're concerned that it may come back on them. Yeah. So I find that when I'm asked to do surveys, and even when they know it's confidential anonymous, they'll be like, really?

Who said that?

And it's like, doesn't really matter who said that. That's right. That's the feedback you got.And I am not saying that means that there's a whole swath of people that believe the same thing that this person does, but the fact that this person has had experience, you need to hold this and think about it and consider it. And maybe you may want to look

at how you do things differently.

And so that as a strategy is huge.

Yeah. That's a really good idea. Survey. That's. That's a really good takeaway. Thank you.If you could leave leaders with one piece of advice about building spaces where people can truly thrive, what would it be?

When I think about leadership, you have to be the person that leads by example.

Okay.

And that means that if you say we are an organization that values your perspective or we want to hear what you think, then you have to walk that talk every day. I think leaders sometimes don't know that people are watching them.People are watching you in the small moments, more so than the big keynotes and the big recognition award ceremonies. I mean, those things are important.

Yeah.

But I find that when you invite folks to lunch to sit with you, or when you decide how you're going to select the next place that you do something and you pick a location that's accessible or you decide you don't want it to be really dressy, and maybe people can get silly and wear hats or funny glasses or, you know, you set the tone. And so the biggest advice I gave to leaders is that everyone's watching you.

Yeah.

In the small moments, more so sometimes than the big ones.

Wow, that's really good.

Carlin.

Thank you so much. This is so wonderful.

Thanks.

Such wisdom.

Thank you.

I appreciate you museum leaders hire Garland.

This has been another episode of noseyAF I'm your host Stephanie Graham.If you liked what you heard today, go ahead and give nosy AF some love by leaving a 5 star rating and review wherever you're listening. It helps folks who find the show thinking, oh, if they like Nosy af, I might like it too.You can find full show notes and transcripts@nosy af.com and while you're there, sign up for my newsletter. Good stuff only, where I share studio stories, fresh art, messy ideas, and each month's episodes straight to your inbox.Thank you so much for your time today. Until next time, stay curious and take care. Bye.