Queer History Is Everywhere: Dr. Kate Henry on Archives, Rhetoric & Lisa Ben

Hey, friend. Welcome. And welcome back to noseyAF conversations about art, activism and social change. I'm your host and friend, Stephanie Graham.And today I am so delighted because you and I are going to have a total geek fest about Lisa Ben, who created the first known lesbian magazine back in the US in the 1940s to lead our obsession today, we have my new friend, Dr. Kate Henry, who is a writer, a scholar, a poet, an all around brilliant femme powerhouse who studies queer history through archives, rhetoric and storytelling. Kate has also created Lisa Benography, which is an accessible public scholarship project about Lisa Ben.So in this conversation, we're going to get into Lisa Ben's stories, queer archives, lost histories, public scholarship, creative writing, and really like what it means to honor people who came before us and, you know, simple like how we could start our own archive. Kate is super passionate, super thoughtful, super smart, funny. I absolutely loved our conversation and I really think that you will too.So let's get into it. You know, I love the theme music. And yeah, we're gonna get right into our conversation with Kate. Welcome to novaf.Gotta get up, get up to the whole world. You will win a winner Vision of a star with a mission in the cause what you're doing, how you doing, what you're doing and who you are.Flex yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't wreck yourself if you know me then you know that I'll be knowing what's up He Stephanie Graham is nosy as Dr. Kate. Welcome to noseyAF.

Thank you for having me. I'm stoked to talk to you about this stuff.

It is such an honor. I have to tell the audience. So Dr. Kate and I. Can I also call you Kate just for conversation? Thank you. Kate and I are in a writing group together.And in the writing group, Kate gave a class about being productive and how to write our own, like, productivity, practice. And that class was awesome, number one.But in the class, what stood out to me was when you were being introduced, you were introduced to someone who studied queer history. And it just made me think, like, how come I didn't think to study queer history? How can one even think to study queer history?Because how I was raised, queerness, really queerness and just, I guess, non queerness. All of this had to do with who was in your bedroom. And really that's nobody's business.So to me, how would one know if something is a part of queer history? So I would just love to know if you can just talk about how you even started to think of that as a Something to study.

I mean, I think to speak to that question, like, my research in queer history, like, I was looking specifically at like the 1940s through the 1960s in Los Angeles. So at that time, people didn't want people to know who was in their bed with them. You know, like.Like that was not a time that many folks were like, super out for many reasons that I can probably talk about today. But to answer your question, I have a PhD in rhetoric and composition. And which means.It means like rhetoric and composition, they get grouped together. And a lot of folks who study it, they're studying, like, how we teach writing.So like, composition is really like, you know, teaching folks to teach writing, how folks are composing essays, things like that. And rhetoric gets grouped in, like, rhetoric. Aristotle would say it's like the art of persuading someone.But I think about Aristotle or I think about rhetoric as like, how are we influencing someone to think or believe or behave in a certain way? And like, for example, like Fox News has incredibly effective rhetoric because they have propaganda.They have things that make people freak out and feel like fear mongering, things like that. Like, that's an example of rhetoric.It could be used for good or for ill. And when I started the PhD in rhetoric and composition, I applied to study critical pedagogy because I was like, I had been teaching college writing for a few years, and because I did my MFA in poetry before I did that, the PhD and critical pedagogy, I was really interested in how we could teach in a way to make the classroom like a more democratic place and teach how folks could use writing in a way to, like, dismantle power structures, you know, like. So I was stoked to study how we can, you know, teach writing.And then my first semester of the PhD, I took a class on feminist historiography, which I'll. I'll say what that is in a moment. But that class was about writing women's histories.And historiography, which is really where I would situate myself as a scholar, is looking at how history is created and also studying history. So historiography is the study of how we write history.And as you can imagine, when we look at that through a feminist lens, we're seeing a lot of people's voices have not been recorded.A lot of what we would call rhetoric or performances of thought is happening in spaces outside of the institution of academia or government or places of power.So, like, feminist historiography was my way in because I was thinking, huh, who are all these women or queer Voices that we don't have access to or who have been remembered in an incredibly problematic way. And, like, that got me hooked in thinking about, like, how have we thought about or recorded or not recorded the way that people have written?

Yeah. That's so fascinating. It makes me think, like, is this podcast a historiography? I don't know.

I mean, you're recording. Yeah. Like, and I. We'll talk about archives today a lot, but, like, it is, like, creating an archive of folk stories and. Yeah. So, like, I was.I got interested in doing this, like, looking at queer history. My entry point was thinking about, like, feminist historiography and how women's stories have been. Or not recorded.

Yeah.

And then that led me to think, like, sort of then approach this through, like, a. Like, a queer theory lens or, like, looking at queer stories as well.

Yeah. And one other thing you said with rhetoric. Rhetoric also makes me think of, like, charm and influencers, too.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, when I would teach rhetoric, which I did a ton, like, the main. The way I. In grad school, I got paid to teach writing.And the first things we teach are, like, the rhetorical appeals of ethos, pathos, and logos. So, like, appealing to emotion, appealing to logic, appealing because you have, like, professionalization. Right. So totally those are happening.The influences are using those in a way to sell us things.

Yes. So when you started to, like, get into this work, what were some things that maybe surprised you?

Yeah, well, when I got into it, I guess I was surprised.I was pleasantly surprised that feminist historiographers and, like, rhetorical scholars who are studying women's rhetorics were situating or valuing rhetoric outside of academia. Like, a lot.Like, feminist rhetorical scholars will talk about this being done in the parlor or in, like, the person who I research, who we'll talk about today, she would do things at parties with, like, other queer folks, you know? So, like, that was, like, a pleasant thing to see.Oh, there are, like, these places that people are gathering and, like, having these conversations and educating themselves and one another. And that was really delightful and felt, I don't know, like, was giving, was valuing that kind of. I don't want to.I'm, like, still, like, I. I finished my PhD five years ago, and I'm really interested in thinking about this stuff through more general language instead of just saying, like, the rhetorical performance, you know, like, not just that, but just thinking, like, hey, it matters that people are, like, having these conversations and, like, you know, creating written pieces or creating speeches or music or art in these Places outside of, like, places that give them permission to do it. Like academia.

Right. Or like, spaces that are like cultural spaces. It can, like, just happen at, like, the gas station or grocery store kind of a thing. Yeah.Which is good, right? Because then that makes it more accessible.

Oh, certainly. I'm like. And that is, like, I'm very interested in accessibility, which I know we're going to talk about with public scholarship.So I can wait to bring that in or I can talk about it.

Yeah, let's go there. Yeah, let's talk about public scholarship. I love that.

I love it.

So, like, I. I'd never heard of it before you.

Oh, I am obsessed. And like, one thing that bums me out is I did a master's and then I did a PhD in rhetoric and composition. So, like, seven straight years.And there wasn't a ton of training or, like, classes or things about public scholarship. And I really regret that. So to understand public scholarship is. Let's think about, like, traditional academic scholarship.So like, that is by academics, trained scholars. Happens within the institution. People like professors who are publishing journal articles or something.

And I think of scholarship as, like, free.

Yeah.

Like, you get a scholarship. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.So, like, so we have, like, the scholarship, the stuff they're producing, and then there's independent scholars who are folks who are, like, not tied to a university, but they're trained as an academic researcher and writer, and they still publish in, like, the academic spaces. They're just doing it on their own. And then there's public scholarship. And this is where I want to situate myself.And this is folks who are, like, potentially trained as a scholar, academic scholarship training, but they're publishing intentionally public spaces for audiences outside of these, like, highly trained academic spaces. And they're doing things in a way to make it more accessible, or at least I. That's the way I would approach this.So not using all the academic jargon that you have to use in academia to prove that you are a successful academic and contributing to the field. And a lot of public scholarship is also done with folks in the community. So you're like, creating something.Maybe it's like a report with your, I don't know, towns, like library or something.

Yeah.

So it's like you are creating something with the group that you are publishing this. Even if you are bringing your training as an academic scholar into that.And that really aligns with my personal values and interest in making my research as accessible as possible to folks. Yeah.

It makes me think of, like, in art, they have social practice or like public art where folks might like work with, you know, maybe it's the elders in the community or it's like the moms in the community or, you know, whatever. And like we all work together to create a performance together or like we work on a mural together, those types of things.But just like in like written form or, you know, or like a website or something to like. Or even like zines or something. Yeah, like a way to distribute information.

Yeah, I agree. I think of public scholarship as like, I have a website I created, or like podcasting or people's newsletters and things like this.I think this is still, I mean, you could define scholarship however you want. We're not in academia. We don't have to say it fits all the criteria we would need to get tenure with it or something.So are you teaching someone about something? Are you discovering something? I really love that idea of making this more widely accessible and helping it like, to benefit the, like the public.And this has been something that's been five years since I finished my PhD and I write all the time and I write publicly all the time, but I'm still learning new ways to write and say what I want to say through public scholarship outside of academia. Like, it's like I have to like detox from it, you know.

I have a question. So like, in order to be considered an academic, do you have to have a degree? No. Can it be like self, like you could call yourself a academic?

I mean, I feel like you can.

Yeah.

That makes me think of folks who are like, well, I'm not a writer.

Yeah.

That's published a book on the New York Times list. I'm not a writer.

Yeah.

And I'm like, no, you're a writer. Like, so I don't know, like, I like in academia there are certain like, milestones that folks hit.Like you're, you know, an assistant professor or a full professor or this professor. And like they come with potentially more job security or more pay, you know, or more, more or less responsibilities.And they're based on like your contribution to the field, whether that's how much you've published or like how much you're advising folks or you know, what, whatever those things are. But yeah, I think you could be an academic. I mean, I think that me as like little 5 year old Kate, who loved to read, was an academic.You know, like, why don't. We don't need to. I don't think we need to gatekeep being an academic. If you like have a degree or you're in college or something like that's.

Yeah, I love it.

Other people will feel differently about that, and that's cool.

They don't matter. Right. This is all. We're all going by what Kate says today. It's like, what set. What you say goes. It reminds me of.I have a friend who works at a school, like a grade school, and when he does the announcements, he always calls all the students scholars. And I think it's just so cute.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's so smart. I love that because I feel like it. Like it makes you. The word scholar makes you want to puff up your chest a little bit. So I love it.

I like scholar more than academic.

Yeah.

Personally. Personally.

So let's talk about. Let's dive into your public scholarship project, Lisa Benography.

Yes. So to get here. So Lisa Benography is Lisa Ben and then ography, biography.And the woman who I've been researching for 11 or 12 years to this point, her name was Lisa Ben, but that was actually just her pen name, Lisa Ben, which is lesbian, but an anagram for lesbian. That's what Lisa Ben is.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And her real name that she was born with was Edith Ide. Okay.

That's also a good name.

Edith Devin. Eyed. Devinny was her middle name. I know. Classy. I love that. Yeah. And so. But she is mostly talked about as by Lisa Benn when she was alive.She died in 2015, but she preferred to go by her pseudonym. So that's what I've called her. I discovered Lisa Benn in.I think it was 2014, early 2014, when I was in grad school doing research and just came across her. The. The magazine she wrote called Vice Versa, which is the first lesbian magazine in the United States that we know of.Maybe there's another one, but this is the one that we really count as the first. And she. Pub. 1947 and 1948. So I start. I was just like, fascinated with this magazine that's been.We have copies of it in the archive that are scanned and online that she just was like, writing about being a lesbian in the late 40s. Like, she was like a Scorpio. She did not hold her tongue. She said just what she felt. And it was. That was like. I was so hooked because I was.I'm really. Up until that point, I was like, interested in lesbian periodicals and how folks use them to.How they use the letter to the editor to, like, perform rhetoric, you know, or like, how they use the personals to, like, build community. Like, I think, like Periodicals are really magical spaces. So I discovered this in 2014.And, like, pretty much from then on out, like, I just have been researching this one woman's work. And so my PhD is in rhetoric and composition.Even more specifically, I'm interested in the way discourse, like language and belief around certain ideas circulates from, like, circulates across different levels of media. So, for example, like, in the 40s, 50s, 60s, when Lisa Ben was.Was or when I was looking at Ben's life, it was not a great person or not a great time to be a queer person. Yeah, right. Like, we have laws like the Comstock Law, which prevents mailing of any. Anything with queer content.We have the motion picture production code where you can't have representation of queers. You know, like, there was. And then in 1950, we had the lavender scare, which is like, McCarthyism.Like, queers are getting, you know, like, fired from government jobs kind of like now.But so, like, it was fascinating to read that she was sort of, like, pushing back against this and critiquing it and like, acknowledging it and calling it what it was.

Yeah.

So I just, like, since then have been hooked. And Lisa Benography is a website that I created when I finished the PhD to basically, like, gather information about her and share this with folks.I thought, like, I've been researching this person for so long, I know her so well, and I'm so passionate about this. I'm sure that I will cry today on this recording because I always cry every time I talk about her.Like, why not me make this website where I can make publicly accessible to folks, like, information about her.I can create an archive, like, collecting all the things about her and just make this, like, freely available to folks using language that is accessible. That's, like, different than, like, the, like, maybe like, six people who are ever going to read my dissertation that I wrote.

Right. Yeah. You know, it makes me, like, how do. When they. The. The rule about the, like, not being able to mail queer content? Like, how do they know?Are they looking. Opening up envelopes and looking in there and seeing, like, pictures or something? Like, how would you know?

I don't. I. If you had asked me this seven years ago, I would have been like, here's precisely how.I don't remember all of this stuff at the Comstock lot, but I do remember. So, like, what Ben would do is she worked at a. She was a secretary at RKO Studios, and her boss was like, I don't care.What, do you just have to look busy? You don't have much work to do. So she was like, I'm gonna make this lesbian magazine for my pals.And so she would, like, type it up at work and then, like, run it through with the. Like, whatever the ditto paper was, then hand it out.And she, like, at first was mailing it, and her friends were like, girl, you don't wanna mail that if you'll get arrested if you get caught. Like, you can't. And it wasn't saying anything. It wasn't, like, pornographic. She was, like, talking about lesbians. Right? And.But it was like, no, you can't. You can't do that. You know, like, this is just not okay. It's like, not. It was considered obscenity. Like, there were, like.These were like, obscenity laws at the time.

It's ridiculous. Wow. Shout out to Lisa. Did you ever get a chance to meet them?

I didn't. I was like. When I. She. She had passed away just, like, around, like, a year after I started researching her. I also know, like.Like, she was, like, interviewed by a lot of folks in her life. It would have been lovely to have connected with her. But also, I think I was like, just live your life, girl. Enjoy.Like, you know, like, I don't need. I can.I don't need to be another interviewer coming and knocking on your door in your 90s, you know, but we're very fortunate that, like, the one archives in Los Angeles have all of her papers and her materials and things. And I've been able to go fly out. I'm in Boston, but, like, fly out there and, like, work with them before.So, like, we're really lucky that we still have so much of her letters and her. Everything that she's created in the archive.

Yeah, that's so great that you all have taken such, you know, a sense a keen to her work.

Oh, my gosh, I'm obsessed. Like, I think this is, like, my life's work to just research and write about her and teach people about her. And I do.Like, I have folks literally from all over the world who email me to ask me questions about her or, like, like, to fact check things or, like. Like one show and tell for you. I told you, I have show and tell. Like, when she passed away, there wasn't a obituary for her.So, like, if the New York Times made this book overlooked. And it's about, like, underappreciated people who didn't get, you know, the right kind of obituary. So, like, they.They interviewed me and, like, so I'm sighted. Cool. Talking about her. You know what I mean? So it's cool that, like, I just am, like, I'm obsessed with this.I know so much about it, and people are like, hey, girl, what about this? And I'm like, well, actually, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's very cool.Like, it works really well for me to be like, this is the one thing I'm really good at and know a lot about.

Yeah, that's awesome. That is so awesome. One thing I want to ask, because you come from both, like, creative writing and rhetoric.Like, how do those backgrounds, like, shape the way you approach, like, queer history and storytelling?

I mean, I feel like it helps me approach it because I just am, like, trained to write. Like, trained as, like, not just trained. Like, I like writing.I literally have, like, my whole life have been a writer and, like, have been, like, going to poetry camp since I was in middle school, you know, like, so I feel like my passion and interest in creative writing just means that I, like, want to write a lot, and that helps me to do this. And also, like, I am, when I'm studying what Lisa Ben does. I've talked about vice versa.But she also was a musician who, like, some of the coolest stuff she did was create, like, queer parodies of popular songs at the time in a really poignant way. And so, like, as a creative writer, like, I'm just fascinated with, like, what are the moves she's making? Like, how is she writing and doing this?So, like, my training gives me this, like, lens that I can look through to think about, like, the circulation of, like, how is she. Like, I don't know. How is she doing a rhetorical move or whatever. But, like, I'm also just, like, amazed with how she wrote.She was a writer her entire life, so there's a lot of content I can work with, you know, Like, a lot of writing for me to play around with.

Yeah, I think.For me, like, when I think about, like, archival work, you think, like, not all of it's there, you know, like, you're, like, consistently gathering, and, like, it involves, like, fragments, missing letters, incomplete stories, redacted materials.And it's just, like, how do you navigate those absences, especially when they're telling, like, queer histories that were intentionally erased or hidden or, like, you don't. Or, like, you'll never know about, maybe, because. Yeah, it's just wild.

To me, it is wild. And I feel like, like, this is something.I feel like something that helps me to do the work that I do with researching Lisa Ben and Like, doing my public scholarship and now working on a book project about her. Like, I have the privilege of time and energy and money to put towards this project. Like, I made Lisa Ponography. I paid for it. I paid for that.I built that website myself. You know, it looks great.

I'll put it in the show notes.

It's got red cheetah print. So, like, there are some things that I'm like, oh, I can't find this here.But, like, maybe if I look at this other person's archive who was her friend, and I can find this, like, it's just, like, really incredibly time consuming to find stuff. And then I also think, too, like, the feminist. Feminist historiographers, like, sometimes will use tools like, you know, triangulating.So, like, we know this thing and we know that thing, but we don't know the third thing. But what can we, like, sort of ascertain or guess based on these other things that we know were happening at the time or the place?Like, how can we fill in these gaps? If we want to fill in the gaps? Like, that can be like a. Like, you know, like, literally. That's like, literally a feminist move.We learned in grad school to, like, to be able to fill that in, right? Because there are things that will be missing and there's.It also makes me think too, that, like, I had a professor in graduate school who was on my committee, and he would say that, like, you know, in, like, his community, before he was queer, too. And that, like, when someone would pass away, they would be like, let's hurry to their house and get their stuff before someone, like, burns it.Do you know what I mean? Like, especially, like, if it is, like, a queer history and, like, a family's like, no, we don't want that there. We don't want this out there, right?So, like, I don't know, there are many things that are not there for whatever reason. Sometimes that's like a total, like. Like systemic, institutionalized, like, intentional erasure.Sometimes it's like, I don't know, like, for whatever reason, we might not have things. And there are ways we can try to fill in the gaps. But then, like, I don't know, there are also ways that we're like, we'll never know.And I think there's something, like, I don't know, beautiful or, like, I want to honor that as well. Like, it's sad, but I'm also like, well, if Lisa Van didn't want something in her archive, then, like, then it was her life and not Mine.

Yeah.

I don't know. There's something like. I really feel like a duty to her as the researcher to respect that.

Do you ever think about, like, your own legacy in archive while doing this work? Like, if you're so much into Lisa Ben, what about, like, if folks look up Dr. Kate, they'll see Lisa Ben, but what about Dr. Kate?

Yeah, I think about this, like, it's. That's funny, too, because I got married a few years ago and changed my last name.So, like, it's like, also, like, my archive of me, like, having different names where I did, like, the first, like, three years of my business were all from my old last name, and now it's different. So, like, what is there? I get to reinvent myself. I do think about this. I think about this a lot, too, because.And I talk about this a lot with my spouse because we're like a. We're a butch femme couple. I'm a femme. My spouse Chris is a butch, and Lisa Ben was a femme. She loved being a femme.She was so girly and loved cheetah print and. But I think about this because I'm interested in, like, butch and femme histories as well.And, like, there's this historian, Joan Nestle, who helped us to have the Lesbian Herstories archive, but she has this piece where she's writing about how the, like, lesbian and butch femme history from the 50s is a quiet past. And I have a tattoo of it on my arm. I have the word quiet past tattooed here. Because she's, like.When we're remembering and talking about, like, this history of our. For my queer ancestors, but for her, she actually was like, I was there. It's really.Even if, like, this, like, butch femme history of, like, these, like.Like, you know, what we might call, like, heteronormative gender roles or something, or, like, might be, like, people might be like, I don't like that as much. Like, it's was, like, that's very, very close to my heart. So I think Chris and I, my spouse and I talk about, like, oh, like, our queer archive.Yeah, like, the archive of our stuff together. And, like, how sweet that is.And also the like, again, feminist rhetorical scholars would say, like, an archive doesn't have to be just what is behind the big doors at the Ivory Tower. Like, an archive can be like a shoebox of your grandmother's letters under your bed.

Oh, I like that.

An archive can be anything that we are, like, gathering and keeping. Yeah. I don't know. It's. It's cool. Like, I even, like, was thinking.I said to Chris the other day, I was like, you know, we don't take photos of us anymore. Like, when we first met, we took so many cute little photos of us, and, like, we don't take photos anymore. And I'm like, we should be taking photos.Like, we should. Like, that is our. The archive of us or of me.

Yeah. There's an organization here, Chicago alliance of African American Photographers. And, like, that's what they're all about.It's just like, documenting black people doing everything, because there's, like, such an absence of that.So it's like, even if you just see, you know, black kids playing chess, like, take a picture of it, you know, as best as you can, take the best picture so that we can have, like, documentation of this life lived doing this thing. Because, you know, at the time, you know, when some of these photographers, they're elders, they're like. It was just such a different look. So.Yeah, it's, like, so important, too. It's so crazy how, like, yeah, y' all documenting yourself as, like. Like a history, like a political history in a way, just from existing.

I mean, it's so. It's. I don't know. It's really tender and really sweet. And, like, we don't necessarily think about this now, but as. I mean, like, I.How wild is it that I study something from, like, the 40s and I can still see, like, literally, like, some of the stuff in Ben's archive is from, like, I don't know, 1915 or something, before she was even born. And I can, like, hold it in my hands and look at it, you know? Like, I just think that's so magical.And I think when she was, like, she knew her stuff was going to go to the archive.

Oh, okay.

When she died, like, she, like, she was like, yeah, sure, you can have that when I'm. When I die. But I don't know. I think a lot of us, like, like, she maintained her whole life. She was like, yeah, yeah, whatever.I just wanted to write this magazine, to have friends. And, like, she is remembered as, like, the grandmother of lesbian publishing. And we have, like, the Lisa Ben Journalism Award, you know, like.Like, it's, like, interesting how she was like, I just want to write songs.

Right?

I'm like, why are you calling me an activist? I'm just living my life, you know? And, like, now she's, like, remembered as this huge, like, important historical figure.

Yeah, she's probably like, okay, girl, if you insist.

I mean, yeah, like, it's and this is another thing, too, that, like, drives my interest in studying her, is that she is remembered for writing, vice versa. And, like, that was hugely significant. And. But she also was, like. She was a sci fi writer. She also was a musician.You know, she also was, like, really passionate about adopting cats. You know, like, there's like, all these things that, like, me as the researcher, I'm like, oh, I know all of this other amazing stuff about her.She's not just vice versa.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, too, what this makes me think of. Do you know the singer Luther Vandross?

No.

So he was like, a popular singer. I don't know when he passed, but the thing that people wondered about him if he was queer or not.And then Patti LaBelle got into trouble because she was like, yeah, he was gay. Like, afterwards, people are like, that's not your place.You know, that's not your place because you didn't necessarily see him ever out with anybody. But there was just, like, this thought about him.And it makes me think about how you were talking about how some people want things in their archive and some people don't.And so we'll never know if he wanted that to be talked about, you know, like, obviously, you know, I think I do agree with people with them saying that maybe it wasn't her place to say that or not. But, yeah, it's like, if he wanted it to be known, he would have said so.

Yeah.

You know, and I just find that so wild because if Lisa hadn't made this magazine, it makes me think, like, what if she just kept this all to herself or, you know, she just wrote, like, poems about going to get a beer and that was it. So you would never know about, you know, like, how, you know, what all she became if she didn't so boldly speak about her experience.

Yeah, it's so.

And is it even boldly, like, I mean, she's just making magazines for friends, so maybe she's not even boldly speaking about her experience.

I mean, I feel like, like, this brings two things to mind. The first thing is that she. When she wrote vice versa in 1947, she was, like, really into the science fiction community in Los Angeles.She was the secretary for the Los Angeles Science Fiction Society.

Is she around Octavia Butler's time?

She was. She moved to LA. She was born in 21, so, like, she was there in the 40s.

Okay. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

But she. So, like, she writes vice versa. And if, like, you're another show and tell for you.

Yes.

So she publishes this is from 1960, so this is later. But like this is like a science fiction zine, the magazine of horror. And her sci fi pseudonym was Tigrina.

I love that.

And you can see like she's in here with like H.P. lovecraft and H.G. wells and like. So the layout for this is like just like a standard little thing, but vice versa.If you look at some of the other sci fi magazines from then, it's like totally modeled after that, you know. So it's like she writes vice versa because she's already reading these fanzines in these magazines and inspired by it.And I also too to like what she's doing and vice versa is she has like original poems, stories, but she's also doing like film reviews, music reviews, play reviews, and of anything that has like a queer character, which is the publishing house.Oh my gosh, she is so talented and like this is so cool because there's many reasons for whatever or for whatever reason folks wouldn't be able to see this content. So she's like giving reviews and telling people about it. But she's also. And this is where the rhetorical performance stuff comes in.Because in academia you have to contribute to the field to get your PhD. I came up with this framework called queer rhetorical re education.And in very simple, like, I hope simple, where it's like Lisa Ben at the time was like, hey, a lot of this stuff they're saying about us is really like messed up and it's problematic and like it's not cool that these newspapers or these plays or these films like have these queer characters, like doing harmful things or like being like super like mentally ill. And so she's like calling that out saying like, hey, this thing that we're being shown, it's not cool, not real. Instead, like, let me offer you the satire I wrote. And in the satire, this straight guy wakes up one day and everyone around him is queer.And so it's weird that he's straight and everyone's queer, right?So like she's offering us these alternatives and like queering things and like, so that's, that's some of the like magical stuff that she's doing in this magazine. Like offering these, like, that's probably sci fi influenced.But like how magical if you're a queer person at the time who's like, oh my gosh, I have to be closeted, I can't be out, I have to be care like what I'm going to get raided if I go to the bar and, like, you get to read this story where you're like, oh, how fun to, like, envision this utopia. Right?

Right. Feels like a nice blanket wrapped around you. Sweet as that. Lisa biography is beautifully open. There's no paywalls, no jargon.And we know that that accessibility is important to you. What challenges do you come up against while you're building, like, a project that sits between scholarship and public storytelling?

I feel like the challenge that I'm experiencing, even though some things have been easy, like, it's easy to build the website, it's easy to do, like, the Google search to find examples of stuff. Is that a. I want to continue making Lisa Benography the website because I like that it is publicly accessible.And as I said before, like, I already know all this stuff. Why not, like, do the work to make it easier for other folks who are studying her to learn about her?But I also, this year, have started in earnest working on a book project about her. And I actually started this project. I was working with my. My coach, Camila Galaz, who I hired to help me with Lisa ponography.And the more she and I met and talked about it, we were like, this is a book.

Okay.

Like, hold on. This is a book. So the challenge that I'm encountering there is, like, I'm, like, really excited about it, but I am.I'm highly trained in doing academic writing, you know, Like, I'm highly trained at writing things like, this is queer rhetorical reeducation, and I'll do the analysis to prove it. Yeah.And right now, I am trying to write a book that is, you know, sharing Ben's story and, like, the amazing layers of her life that she's done beyond, just vice versa.And also to, like, weave in the story of, like, what it is for me to be, like, also a femme who's doing this research and is, like, have been, like, so deep in it for years and, like, to bring my passion to that. And it is just a new way of writing.

Yeah.

To do this narrative writing, to do this memoir writing that is not. Like, I have the assignment and I've written it, and I've used 10 citations and give me my stamp of approval. Right. So it's like. It's really.It's sort of like, hey, man, if you want to write a book, no one's forcing you to do it. Like, you have to do it. You have to, like, write the anecdotes. You have to write the narrative and the storyline.And so the challenge that I'm encountering there is like, okay, man, I just have to, like, figure this out as I go.And I can have folks support me and read drafts, and I have my coach, Camila, but it's also, like, it is a challenge in that it's like, a time for me to really strengthen my public scholarship, writing, and research skills in a new way that is, like, I can bring some of the stuff that I learned in academia, of course, but, like, the actual thing that I'm writing and sharing and, like, hope to publish is not written in the same way as what I did for my PhD in rhetoric. And that's been a definite learning curve and very humbling.

Yeah, I bet.It seems like that would be, like, intense because it's like, you're trying to do this project and then, like, learn a new way of thinking or applying at the same time. Yeah, it's a lot.

It's like, it's funny because, like, I coach people who are writing, and I'm like, if someone came to me and was like, I'm writing this book, I'd be like, cool, let's come up with a to do list for you. Right? So, like, I can, like, come up with a to do list. And then it's like, okay, you have to write, you know?And so I'm actually right now at a stage where I, like, I've been already, like, coming, like, writing down and recording all the stuff I already know. And I'm like, okay, it's time to return to the archive to find out new things. Like, I don't know. I'm learning things even.Like, I didn't know that she was born left handed and, like, then forced to learn how to be right handed. Like, I didn't. I've been researching her for how, like, a decade.And I only learned this the other day by rereading, like, something that, like, a letter that she had written. You know, like, it's.

And she said it in the letter.

Yeah. Like, I think it was a letter where she said it, but it's. Or like, maybe it was an interview. I'm not even remembering now. But it's like.But the archive is just so. There are, like, thousands of photos I have that I've taken of things in the archive to wade back through.

Yeah.

And that's a challenge as well, being like, ooh, I just want to, like, be in these documents and read them and learn and love it. But I'm also like, no, no. You also need to be, like, writing down what scenes you want to write right there is the challenge there of like.Well, you know, like, I also have to work. Like, I can't just do this all the time. And it's, it's a.It's like, as far as challenges go, it's an okay one to have, but it definitely is humbling to be like, you know, unless, like, not that I'm saying I could just like, lickety split write academic book for academic audiences, but this is a different sort of genre of writing, right?

Yeah, I could totally see, like, you know, a girlfriend or even like kids in high school, like, reading your Lisa Binography book, you know, which is like, great. So they have like a model to look at or just somebody else to be inspired by.

Yeah, I mean, that's my goal. And like, I feel like some feedback I've heard since the beginning of when I started researching her is like, just how.How obvious it is how much I love her and how much I care about this and how, like, that gives folks, like, I don't know, the opportunity to, like, I don't know, there's like, just something special that folks have told me that it is to hear me talk about that. Because it's not just like, I'm like, she's my research subject, you know? Right, right. Something I really care.

You really care about? Yeah. I'm curious.Like, what advice do you have for others who want to share their research or like, creative work publicly without diluting its complexity?

Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, I. I like diluting its complexity.Well, I mean, like, if anybody wants to be in a support group with me, like, recovering academics trying to write, you know, like, for public scholarship, like, I'm.

I wonder if that's a group.

I mean, it is. I also was like, is there a conference? Like, I don't want to host it.

But I know that's right.

Yeah. Like, I'm sure, like, I'm like, I need to be. Or like a salon.Like, I've often been like, do we need to have a SAL where folks who are like me, who know something really well, just come and like, teach and talk about it to other folks similarly. Yeah, but I, I mean, I would suggest for folks that again, I feel that public scholarship is something that can be done. You know, like, you could.It could be a newsletter or like, you could like, do like a guest pitch for someone else's new newsletter or you can give a talk or something like that. And I also think too, like, like, I had to fly to California to go to this Queer archive that. It's like an. It's like a queer.It's literally like a queer LGBTQ archive. Right. To look at all this stuff. But there are, like, archives around, or, like, maybe, like, you could build your own archive. Yeah, Letters.Like, I have saved, like, every sweet greeting card. Like, every birthday card, every anniversary card. Like, I've saved those for, I don't know, decades.And every now and then I'm like, let me go through all my cards.

Yes.

Like, that's not an example necessarily of, like, this, like, highfalutin archive or something like that, but I think, like, there doesn't need to be, like, a huge entry, like, a challenging entry point to it. Or, like, maybe you teach each other. Teach you and your friends, like, teach each other stuff. Or maybe you make a zine about it.Or maybe you, like, do an Instagram live and you just are talking about this thing that, you know. You know, I love that. I don't think there has to, in my opinion. Like, I understand.I'm talking about this where I'm like, yeah, we can all just make this stuff. But there are certain. Like, if you're like, no, I would like for there to be exchange value to the labor and time that I'm putting into this.Like, I think there are ways that you could maybe, like, give talks or do a guest. Like, I do a lot of guest lectures in college classes. Like, if anyone listening wants a guest lecture for your class. You know what I mean?Like, that kind of stuff is out there, too.

I really love that. I really keep thinking about the whole archive in a shoebox. My show and tell for you.I have my grandpa's, like, his eyes ID from when he worked at Hyde Park Academy. And, like, I just have it because, like, when we were clearing out his house.But I'm like, let me, like, make sure he has, like, not a shoe box, but, like, a nice box. You know, Let me, like, gather all this stuff together and, like, keep it. Like, maybe it's something I would go through and make a zine.Or, you know, it doesn't have to be like, you know, public scholarship. May. Maybe it's personal scholarship. Is that. Could that be a thing? Personal scholarship?

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Just made that up.

Or like, something you share for, like, I don't know, like, just with, like. Like a dinner party where.

Yes.

Folks are just sharing things with each other or something like that.

I would love that.They have those parties where I remember seeing on Instagram, people, like, friends would get together and they'll like make their goals and they make little like PowerPoint presentations.Like, what if we each like made like a little 15 minute presentation over like one person you studied, you know, or somebody in your family and presented it. So I love, I love that as the idea of a party.

Yeah. It also, that makes me think too, like some of my.A lot of the stuff in my archive, like my things from Lisa, like, like places where she's been published or something, have been from ebay for like 20 bucks. Oh, you know what I mean? So like there is. If you are interested in something, like another thing, I'll show you that my.The first Christmas that my spouse and I were together, they bought me a record. Like Lisa Ben recorded a song that was on like this little record. Oh, no way. Yeah, like two of her songs on here. And Chris bought it for me.I don't know, it was like less than 50 bucks on eBay. And it's like one of however many that was printed in like 1960 of these things. And like you can listen to it, you know, so that is a cool thing.There's other stuff too. Like, there's like one another. This is a whole nother story. But like, like some.She was also like into the occult and into like, you know, like this stuff with horror and fantasy and like a piece that she created is like online for like thousand dollars. Do you know what I mean? So like some things are like. But I know the people who have. They're selling it for $7,000.They had a copy, an extra copy that they gave to an archive, you know.So that's also something too where I'm like, you might be able to find cool stuff or like even like I like, I also collect like, like women's magazines from the 40s.

Yeah.

Just because it's fascinating.

Yeah.

They're like, I don't know, five bucks a pop at a like antique store or something. Yeah.

I'm so inspired by your interest of the 40s. Maybe I'll pick a decade and like just sort of see what I can find in it that might interest me. I'm sort of. I love that.

I think I got pulled to the 40s because I again, like, as someone who I think that butch femme stuff is really romantic. Like there's a lot. And Jo Nestle who said. Talked about the quiet past, which is my tattoo.Like, like, you know, we have like the, like there's a lot of lesbian consciousness raising and things from the 70s or, you know, and it's. Or the 80s and it's like, I don't know, like, really inspirational in some ways, but also, like, really, like, butch, femme phobic in other ways.So I was like, no, I'll do this. But, like, Lisa Ben was doing stuff her whole life. Like, I could have studied what she did in the 60s, you know, but I, like.I was particularly fascinated by, like, what was happening in the 40s and the 50s. Yeah. It just was like. And again, like, I. I guess I am a historian, even though I have a history. Like, of course I am. You know, anyone.Again, we can be historians. We need to have a PhD in it. But, yeah, it just was the one that I settled into. But you don't have to pick one.

That's true. I think what just inspires me about it is that I'm so used to, in my art projects, jumping from one project to another.And I think it's interesting when folks, like, pick one project and, like, stay with it forever, or for, like, 10 years, 15 years, you know, And I'm like, so, so used to. Okay, that's done. Now this one. Now this one. And I'm trying to, you know, get myself to stick with one thing for a while.I had a studio visit where that was, like, a challenge, a suggestion. And I'm like, oh, you know, that is a good point. I do sort of bop around. I think I'm just used to that with my, like, film training.But I am sort of curious, like, if I was to stay put for a little bit, what could be discovered? Because you. There's another. Another artist, I think of Whitney Bradshaw.You know, y' all are like, just sort of stay with these topics for a long time. And I sort of. I like that. Cause you keep it. Y' all are still interested in it. You keep discovering new things. And so I'm inspired by that. Yeah.

I. I mean, I love it. I knew when we were, like, learning different research methods in grad school, I was like, I want to do archival stuff.I don't want to interview people. I don't wanna go and immerse myself and take memo notes.Being doing ethnography, I was like, I can just go quietly sit in the archive and look at this really cool old stuff. That was my dream.

I love it.

I feel very fortunate. I'm a Libra who doesn't like making decisions. So it works really well for me to be like, here's the one thing.There's lots of cool shit in it, but it's just the one thing that's so Smart.

I love that. Yeah. Oh, my go gosh. Well, thank you so much for talking to me as we close.You know, I think also a thing that I think about is I was seeing this guy for a while, and he was always be so impressed with, like, my job title, my friend jobs, my friend's job titles. And he always says, like, you guys have jobs that nobody knows about. And I think that about your, you know, what you studied.I was like, nobody says, like, hey, did you know you can study queer history?Like, they don't say this kind of stuff at the high school, you know, at the career fairs, you know, or like, the college fairs, they don't give these as options. So you don't know that you can do it until you hear somebody say, oh, I studied queer history. And then you're like, oh, that makes sense.That's a good idea.

Yeah. I mean, I didn't. My whole application for the PhD program was not for queer history. Like, I didn't know.I loved it until I discovered it and was like, this is so, like, so satisfying. And, like, I get to. I don't know, it's, like, gossipy. Like, I get to, like, read people's private stuff. I don't know. Like, it is.It's a really satisfying thing that I do. I like it.

I love it so much. This has inspired me to, like, think about more queer histories I've never spoke about.I don't think anything queer focused on the podcast, which is probably a shame, but how would I know? I don't know, because I never. I never lead with that.

There's lots of folks doing stuff. Like, I. I recently interviewed Dr. Eric Darnell Pritchard. I know from, like, I trained with them when I was in grad school, and they.They are, like, have created this, like, phenomenal biography of, like, the, like, fashion creator Patrick Kelly. And, like, just, like, has, like, like, I'm not doing a traditional biography.The labor that goes into doing that and the amount of interviews we have to do just seems so daunting. Yeah.But, like, just to see the stuff that Eric has created is like, they have made this, like, biography and published and talked about it, but also made, like, a children's book about it.

Oh, wow.

So, like, talking about, like, Patrick Kelly, but through, like, a young children's book, you know, which is like, I love. Yes, again, like, the public scholarship. I'm like, let's make this accessible in all these different ways.

Yeah. It even makes me think about that even with, like, the Luther Vandross like his documentary, it's like. Yeah, it's like that.In the same way, outside of just, like, writing, it's like, that's, like, daunting, too. You gotta research all that stuff and not daunting. But I'm sure the filmmaker had a great time, you know?Cause then you get to go interview all these people and stuff. But, you know, there's always. It's always something, the stuff, you know, these projects come on, like, highs and lows, you know? Oh, my goodness.Well, Dr. K, thank you so much for being on noseyAF and sharing, y'. All. Can I just say, I am even more inspired to get into the business of nosying into more people's stories after learning about Lisa Ben.Did you know about Lisa Ben before today? I would love to know. Kate put me onto Lisa Ben put me onto public scholarship histography so much. I would love saying public scholarship.Can I just tell you that, like, I think I actually love the levels of this whole scholarship thing, like how some things could be, like, strictly academic. Big word text that, like, oh, you have to be like. You have to have a PhD to understand what they're saying.And then on the other side, the same person, like, Kate could write something that's available to the rest of us. I love that spectrum. Like, when you can go, like, across like that, it gives me sort of like Armani, Armani Exchange, Toyota, Lexus.Like, it's all good. You know what I mean? It's just presented differently, but it's all still the same thing in a way.We didn't really talk about it at all today, Kate and I, but Kate is also a productivity coach, and I just want to shout that out, because if you find yourself working on a project and you need some sort of practicality, Kate writes talks and coaches all about productivity. And she even put me onto this method called the spoon method, which I guess is sort of like this thought process.You get these spoons, say you have, like, five spoons, right? And so you use the spoons as a measurement for how much capacity you have for the day. I love it.And, yeah, so I've been learning a lot from Kait these past few months. And I don't know, I also really love the whole lisaba and friends only project, like how the magazine started out for her friends.Like, what kind of friends only project can you make? I would love to know. I have a friend, Scott, who makes mixtapes just for his friends. He makes the mixtape, he sends it out.There's a song list and I just. I just love it. I just love this so much. It was such a lovely talk today. Anyway, I'm off to think of who I can obsess over next.Maybe there's some sort of baddie in the faith space, like a black version of Sister Corita Kent or somebody like that that I can obsess over.I want to find like a faith based baddie, but I'm also thinking maybe it could be a housewife, you know, like, oh my gosh, like, do I start archiving nene leaks? I don't know. I gotta see. Anyway, thank you so much for listening and if you have thoughts, please write us and let us know. I would love it.Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of noseyAF and I will see you next time. Bye. This has been another episode of Nosy af. I'm your host, Stephanie Graham. What did you think about today's conversation?I would love to hear your thoughts. Head over to the noseyAF website for all the show notes related to this episode.You can also find find me on Instagram at Stephanie Graham, what would you know? Or online@missgraham.com where you can sign up for my newsletter where I share exclusive updates about my studio practice as well as this podcast.Until next time, y' all stay curious and take care. Bye.

Sam.