Everything is Mutual Aid with Autumn Breon

Welcome and welcome back to nosey AF conversations about art, activism and social change. Hi, I'm your host, Stephanie, and I am so stoked to kick off season seven with an incredible conversation.Today I'm joined by Los Angeles based artist Autumn Breon. Autumn's work is rooted in black feminist praxis, historical memory, and speculative futures.Through performance, installation, and public art, she creates space of liberation and care, portals into other realities by ancestral technologies and maroon ecologies bars.With a background in aeronautics and astronautics from Stanford University, Autumn even pushes her practice beyond earth, exploring spatial freedom in ways that truly expand what art can be. Her work has been featured at Hauser and Wirth LACMA and the Oakland Museum.And this weekend, she's bringing her visionary practice to the Walk the Block Artist Festival in Seattle, Washington. But first, she's bringing that same energy right here into our conversation.So as we do, let's hit the theme music and get this party started with Autumn. Vision of a star with a mission in the cause. What you're doing, how you doing what you're doing and who you are Flex.

Yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't.

Wreck yourself if you know me then you know that I'll be knowing what's up.

Hey, Stephanie.

Graham is gonna nosey Autumn. Welcome to nosey af.

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

I'm so glad to have you here. Autumn. You studied at Stanford.

Yes.

Super cool and super fancy. And I bring this up because I have a neighbor kid, which I call all the kids in the neighborhood neighbor kids because it just. It's, like, easy.And she is applying to schools her mom is trying to push her into, like, applying to Harvard, Princeton, Stanford. The grades are there.

The usual suspects.

The usual suspects. And she is saying everybody that goes there is boring. Everybody's in polo shirts. And I'm like, autumn is not in a polo shirt.

Yeah.

I'm like, wow, she's so young to have that thought. Because it's 20, 25.You would think that she would see, you know, artsy, as you say, like, artsy, eclectic folks everywhere in, like, all sorts of professions.

Yeah.

But I don't know. She doesn't. Yeah. And I'm like, aw.

So if you're listening, hey, I'm Autumn, and I did go to Stanford, and I don't wear polo shirts every day. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so interesting. And there's so many parts of that that I'm thinking about as you share that with me.But I can speak to my experience at Stanford. I'm so grateful that that's where I learned and that's where I went to college. Yes, I did start on a completely different track.My degree's in engineering in aeronautics and astronautics. But so much of what I got from Stanford was learning how to think like an engineer.First of all, reinforcing how to think and work like an entrepreneur.And just an incredible network of friends, friends that have become family, incredible professors, like folks that just helped shape me in addition to what I was learning when I was in class, you know, and a part of why Stanford was a good fit for me.At the end of the day, I think I was choosing between Stanford and Yale and I visited both campuses but, and I think Yale is a fantastic institution too. I have plenty of friends that loved Yale.But what made Stanford a fit for me was that I was surrounded by so many other people that had done these extraordinary things and were studying and doing extraordinary things in school, but were incredibly well rounded and just interesting people.So like you end up having like a roommate, somebody that lives down the hall that's like working on a cure for cancer and may also just be really great at rugby or you know, draws anime really well or makes music and is studying to be an architect. Like I, I, I think that's so special about an environment like that.And it's a part of what's so important to me about the folks that I'm really close to now. Like, I really love learning from my peers and being around people that inspire me.And I, I really look forward to when we get to a point as a people, as a society where there isn't a stereotype or a typical look for, for an engineer, for a venture capitalist, for whatever, and where there's the expectation to be well rounded.Because I, I, I think that when, when you try to put yourself into, or fall into these silos of like I'm a math and science person or I'm a liberal arts person, like I, I think all of that is bullshit. Like none of that really exists. All of us, all of us are creative.There's this, this really important artist leader, Jackie Sykes, one of the founders of St. Elmo's Village here in la, which is this artist community with a super rich history. And her late husband, peace be upon him, Roderick Sykes, had this incredible statement. He would say, you were created, therefore you can create.

Yes, I love that you may not.

Be a visual artist as a full time job, but I guarantee you that as a human being you are creative. And we will, we would all do so much better in our fields if we recognized creativity being a necessity in order for anything to work.Well, if we recognize, like, yeah, there's, like, numeracy and mathematics all around us, you may not be a master at it, you may not be a mathematician, but you're gonna use math. We just have to understand that, like, we deserve to learn in. In many different ways in front of many sorts of people.Like, it's so boring to just, like, fit into a box. And. And that's not natural. There's nothing organic about that.

Yeah, I hate that. I hate that whole box stuff. Yes. See, Briana. That's her name. You better go apply.

Yeah, Briana, please apply.

You're not gonna be like, I'm gonna.

Meet you one day.

Yeah. She was just like, I'm gonna get sucked into having a family, and then I'll have to, like. It was just like. I'm like, where are you getting this from?I've been doing research about proms, like, prom sendoffs and, you know, like, in black culture and all that, and brown culture, too, or brown folks, too. And I was. I've been reading also our kind of people. It's like Lawrence Otis Graham. Yeah.And in there, he speaks about Jack and Jill and at, like, a certain point, how it started to become more progressive, he said.And so I think about her because she was a part of Jack and Jill, and I'm like, oh, that's so interesting that you still seem to have this, like, very boxed in point of view, because there's all sorts of people doing all sorts of things that look all sorts of ways. So.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just thought that was interesting.

So. So I was a debutante, and that surprises people sometimes, like, which I think is strange. But, yeah, I was a debutante.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm still friends with folks that were. That were in my debutante cohort in my, um. I don't know what the Jack and Jill experience is in 2025. I'm. I'm not a member of Jack and Jill. Yeah. Yeah.Like, I, I, I was more familiar with those types of social clubs, like, when I was, like, a debutante, like, in high school and things like that.Um, but, like, when I think about if I had children and even, like, my nieces that are in my life now and, and what I want them to see and be around and how I want them to learn.

Mm.

I, I love the fact that they are seeing adults that are doing incredible things and that hopefully their norm will be very different. From those before them.So where like they, I, I hope they know that like, yeah, somebody with a degree in engineering can have bleached eyebrows and tattoos.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And also please, please have bleached eyebrows and tattoos. Yeah.

Like I just think, and it just makes me sad when like, like I would never want to impose on a young person to think that success is based on how well you perform capitalism and how well you participate in capitalism. Like I understand that's the reality in which we live in.But like a sense of imagination and like self determination, I think those are, are such important traits that we can instill in young folks where create their own paths. Like that's the goal, like the goal isn't for my kid to, if I had a kid, I don't even know if I would want them to go to Stanford.Yeah, that's not like that. That's not my place. I want them to find a place that's a good fit for them like Stanford was to me. But, but who knows what that might be?I, but I would never want to tell them, hey, you will only be successful if you, if you take one of these jobs and stay in school, lodging up and make this amount of money. Like I would want them to be happy, healthy, creative and maybe even come up with a job that I've never even heard of before. That's brand new.

Absolutely. Yeah.And even that like going into any of these things, like her thinking, oh, if she wants to be an engineer, that that means that she's going to have that she's going to end up looking a certain way. You know, she doesn't want to change. It's like that's not going to happen. Like you are who you are, like you're into what you're into, period.That's it.

You know, I wish I had learned that at a younger age. Cause I know what that kind of pressure looks and feels like.I know what it, I know how it's difficult to have that kind of self determination when you're young because it's an anomaly. I completely get that. But I really wish that I had understood that and mastered it younger.

The youth, you know, they're always up to something, these young people.

I have so much hope and I'm so excited for this next generation because I think that they're going to learn like some of the things that we're talking about. I think they're gonna learn that and clock stuff so quickly. They're gonna go further so much more quickly.

Yeah, it's like not even gonna be a thing. I remember seeing this fun Instagram reel where it shows, like, this school bully, and he's like, give me your lunch money. Give me your lunch money.And all the kids are like, wait, you don't have lunch money? They're like, if you don't have lunch money, just say that. Like, you don't need to, like, get in our face.

Right? Like, you have mutual aid. We can pay each other. That's what I think kids these days would probably say.I, again, I don't know, but that's what I like to imagine. Maybe I'm romanticizing it.

Yes. That just made me laugh so much. So I'm like, yeah, I feel like these kids would totally just be like, dude, don't, like, try to rob us.Like, yeah, just come in the food line and we'll get you right. Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, it's a fun segue.Thinking of mutual aid, because, you know, you have your project Care Machine, which is a vending machine that has traveled that has a bunch of tools available for free for black women. Tampons, condoms, edge control lip gloss. Where did that project come from?

So, yes, the Care Machine. So everyone can use the Care Machine. Its origin came from Care Machine.

Sure, sure. Thank you. Yes.

So I asked black women, with my art, I'm always posing some kind of question or there's some kind of prompt, and the data I collect, the responses inform the artwork. So for the Care Machine, I asked black women to tell me what items provide care or what reminds them of care.And those are all stocked in the Care machine, and the machine is retrofitted, and I program everything to be free of charge. So it's proof. It's meant to be proof of the fact that everybody wins when we center and start with black women.

Yeah.

So the. The items are things like tampons, pads, Narcan, morning after pills from Julie, abortion pill resources, Edge Control lip gloss books.So these are items that black women asked for, but everyone, including black women, can take what they need from the Care machine, and everybody's going to benefit from it. Like when somebody picks up some lube, condoms, Narcan, like, that's something that you and the people around you benefit from.

Absolutely. Yeah.I remember when we were talking, you know, just in preparation for our conversation today, we spoke about, like, everybody should have Narcan on them.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's such an important thing.

And. And. And we think that way about items that we carry on our person already. Like, if you have Gum or a lighter or something like that.It's not only for you to benefit from. If somebody needs light or wants a piece of gum or something, it's something that's meant to be shared.So I think we're accustomed to that kind of community care already.

Yeah, that's so true. When I was starting out in film, I would be like a PA and you would always have to have things on you just in case somebody needed it.So, like pens, pencils, box cutters, a lighter, you know, like. Cause you always wanted to be that. Go to person like, oh, does anybody have this? Yes, I do. You know, but where did you.Where did the idea come from to start the care machine?

Mm. Mm. The idea for the care machine came from research that I was doing on Bernice Robinson.She's a black woman that was in South Carolina, and she was a beautician.And after she went to a workshop at the Highlander School in Tennessee, she started teaching folks how to read and write from her hair salon so that they could pass literacy tests, tests that black folks used to have to take to prove that they could read and write in order to vote. So the strategy was to train folks in secret, teach them how to read and write so that they could pass these tests and then be registered.Her students passed. And a part of what was so intentional and unique about her pedagogy was that instead of her using like.Like grade school or primary school readers that children would use to learn how to read, she used objects and items that adults were already interacting with and familiar with to teach them how to read. So, like, cans, the backs of, like, canned food and Sears catalogs, things like that.So that there was dignity in her approach to teaching and learning.

Right. Instead of getting, like, a cardboard book with an apple on it.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Which. Which again, like, it makes so much sense. Like, that's an intelligent approach.That's really simple and intuitive, and I think that's a part of the beauty of it and why it worked so well.And the model scaled to other beauty salons in the south where they were teaching folks how to read and write, mobilizing, organizing within their hair salons. It was.It was completely hidden in plain sight because most folks didn't expect that kind of work to be happening in a place where women got their hair done.

Right.That's so interesting that that was happening because, yeah, like, in a beauty salon, I get stories all the time, but not necessarily, like, a direct lesson. What Ms. Robinson was doing. Right, like here, reading and Writing, but I'll extract lessons from stories I'll hear in the beauty salon.So it's sort of not direct learning, but listening learning or something.

Yeah, yeah. Like we're always learning something. Like we're being enriched. That's the, that's the special kind of like muscle of hair salons.I think that there's so much more that's happening while adornment, while beautification, while that is happening. And I have a hair and nail salon in my studio where I. Oh, really? So, yeah, yeah.So I'm surrounded by the sounds and smells of hair salon all the time when I'm working. So I think that probably contributed to the inspiration too.But when I was just thinking about like, what is, what's like a mechanism for care to be delivered the same way it was from Bernice Robinson's hair salon. What's like another kind of mechanism that people are already familiar with.Like your muscle memory knows how to interact with it, but where care can be provided, dispensed en masse. And I thought of a vending machine because most folks know how to interact with.

Yes, absolutely.

There's not a lot of training that's necessary.

Right? Yeah. And we all know we can just walk up to a vending machine and we can get something from it and be like, oh, there it is.Let me go see what they have in there. Chips or water, whatever. I love the idea. I think it's really cool. And it's traveled all over, right?

It has, it has. We were in Chicago last summer.Actually, we stopped in Chicago during the dnc that was with Sky Art for this really special day long festival that they had that was during the DNC. We were there with them and with Four Freedoms. We've been in Kansas City, we've been in D.C. on the National Mall.We're getting ready to head to Seattle with the care machine next month.

Yeah, that's very cool. And then like, so you have. Is it your hair salon? Are you a hair salon stylist in your studio or is it. You guys like share space. Oh, very cool.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I have a friend who has a studio in Arizona. I think she might have moved out of there, but it was in a strip mall. And I just thought that that was so smart. It was like free parking.So I love this idea of like also sharing space, like in a hair salon, nail salon, because a lot of those spaces, they have room, like so if you're like an artist, you know, you could be like hey. And there's always people in there, so you always have company. I love that. Yeah.

And that's important for me. Like, that's, that, that totally depends on, on the artist.But sometimes I like a little bit of activity around me, like ambient sound and, and real people. And I, I, I live in, well, I work in Inglewood, used to live in, in Englewood.It was also really important for me for the place that I work from to be south of the 10 Freeway in LA.

Okay.

And those are a lot of. So that's where a lot of historically black neighborhoods and communities are in Los Angeles. South Central is south of Central.The 10 freeway is kind of like that border in LA. So that was important to me. And also to be somewhere where I can know my neighbors and interact with them.So there's like a Jamaican place that's on the same block where I can walk down and get patties. Sometimes, like, I see folks walking their kids over to the Taekwondo studio that's in the other direction.And the other small business owners in the neighborhood. I know. And that's really important for me for a place that I work from. Like, those things are on my list of non negotiables.

Absolutely. I love that so much because then it makes it like a community. And then you get to see cute kids in their karate uniforms, which is so dope. I know.

I think it's incredibly cute. Sometimes they're so tidy. Yes. Like, I didn't know they made karate costumes as small.

I know, right?

Uniforms, right?

Yeah. Uniform.

Yeah.

We don't know. Yeah, that's okay. It's good. Oh, my gosh. I.So then, because one of my questions for you was why you have, like, some other projects that are, like, surrounded around the hair salon. Yeah. So did your, did the hair salon in your studio, like, inspire that as well? Like, seeing that, or have you always just been into hair salons?

I think it's a little bit of both.

Okay.

So I grew up going to the hair salon with my grandmother, with my aunts, like that. That was just a part of my routine with them. Obviously, a hair salon is close to me, so that's always on my mind.But protective style, the performance that I did, that was inspired by Bernice Robinson.

Okay.

So that body of work really started with her.The first piece was really the performance that was basically imagining that hair salons are still hidden in plain sight and that these hairstyles that we get look great, but they're also what's been protecting us from all of the violence and harm that's in the world when you step outside of the hair salon.So I think a whole body of work just grew out of that because then I started making sculptures that looked like hair grease, and I had this juju from hair salons and. And then the care machine, obviously.So I think I'm just inspired by Bernice Robinson, for sure, by my studio practice, but also the privilege I've had of being in third spaces that were for and by black women. That felt really important for me to monumentalize, to create workaround, because I've benefited from it so much and I know it's so important to us.It's something that I want to preserve. So I think the whole body of work came from a combination of things.

Yeah. I think when I think of the protective style and care machine or you had another project, is it the. It was like luxury.

Is that.

It's the blue.

Leisure lives.

Leisure. Yes. Thank you. Leisure lives.

The blue.

I got the L. Yes, the blue. And your performance in that. And protective style is also performance. When you started to make work, did you start with performance?

Mm, performance and assemblage. I would say that those were my starting points.An early piece that I did, I worked with this denim company and I basically used recycled denim and recycled furniture and made like a little projector. Projected a video about the history of denim and how it's actually like super black.

Okay.You might have noticed that we had a little lawnmower situation coming our way, because apparently lawn care companies just do their jobs on schedules. Like, how dare they? Didn't they see Autumn and I speaking? So here's the deal.We're going to circle back to Autumn's work with performance and assemblage towards the end of our conversation. But first, I would like to invite you to check out the something special that I host called Artist Admin Hour.Artist Admin Hour is a weekly co working session for artists, filmmakers, cultural stewards and soft life strategists to tackle the boring but essential stuff with, of course, good company. So basically, it's hard, right? Doing admin work can be annoying, but sometimes we need a ritual to get it done with glam grace and zero grind.So whether you're sending invoices, applying for their residency, wrangling receipts, or finally cleaning up your desktop, this is your bodily doubling space to show up and get things done. Bring your to do list. Bring yourself. We meet every Wednesday starting October 1st from 7 to 9 Central.You can find all the details about this@artistadminhour.com and of course, there will be a link in the show notes. All right, now let's get back to the conversation with Autumn because she has a controversial statement to make. Dun, dun, dun.

I'm gonna say something controversial. I'm working through it. Black excellence needs a new definition.

Okay.

And I hate hate and hate limited, unhealed descriptions of black excellence.

Do you like the term black excellence?

I don't think I do the way that it's typically used. I do not like it. I do not like it.

Yeah.

Because I am more interested in. I think there is more complexity, more humanity and black mediocrity.

Yeah.

In order for us to exist, in order for us to be validated, we should not have to be perfect, excellent at all times and fit into what's most likely a cookie cutter description that is based on white supremacy, a function of white supremacy, and most likely respectability. I think that's so boring. And there's nothing excellent about that. Now, if.If black excellence means healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically, loved, cared for, caring.

Yeah.

Shifting a paradigm, that's excellent. I think that's great. But some of these other definitions of black excellence, like, we.We might as well just say, congratulations, welcome to the talented tenth. You passed.

You know, I think about this when I think I love reality tv. Like the Housewives. I've been watching the show, like, Love and Huntsville, and they're always talking about.

What's it called?

It's called Love and Huntsville, Alabama. Huntsville, Alabama. Yeah.

Wow.

And it started out with three couples who were rebuilding Huntsville, Alabama. And you're like, great. We get to see these countries.

All they. All six people rebuilded all of Huntsville. Three black couples.

Yes, they were contractors.

Contractors.

And they were like, they. They, like, bought, like, a certain area, and they were trying to make, like, affordable housing, Right.So they had a plan, but they would never get along. And then all of a sudden, one of the couples had a side chick. Called the side chick, a peasant on the TV show. Then it brought her out.And then the wife is divorcing the man. Right. And it's like, it's totally gone away from them rebuilding now. It's just become a complete disaster.But they're always talking about, we're excellent. You know, we're building businesses. We have a house. And it's like, no, you guys are cheating on your wives. Your wives won't leave you.They're not having confidence. This is like. And then the one lady who did have the boldness to leave, you know, they're dogging around like, it's just, like, a mess.Like, it is not black excellence at all. It's not black excellence at all.And I feel like I'm so deep into it, just, like, of watching the show where, like, now I'm like, okay, let me keep watching. Like, it's like, I'm a little guilty pleasure.

But I was invested.

I was really excited about seeing these contractors build houses in north Huntsville in the beginning, you know?

Yeah.

But. Yeah, I don't know.Something about this whole, like, excellence, you know, if you say, like, mediocrity, that's probably better because then they become more relatable. Right. Like, is mediocrity more relatable? Not that I don't want us to be relatable to that TV show. Like, that's. I'm not trying. I'm just.I was just sharing that show. But I don't know. The mediocrity. Is mediocrity what we should strive for? I don't know.

I. I guess. I guess maybe what I'm thinking is that no one should be on a pedestal, and there should not be one. One way of being that we all strive for.Like, I think that's where the danger is. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, and. And, like, with the mediocrity bit, like, should we. Should we strive for mediocrity?No, but I think that we can tell stories about it.Like, I don't like the idea of there being this pressure to perform that we put on black folks, where it's like, if you're in the spotlight, if you're creating something, if you are leading, it has to be about black excellence or you need to represent some kind of excellence. Because, one, it's like you're perpetuating the stereotype that all blackness is not excellent and that this type of blackness is an anomaly. 1.Like, that's perpetuating something that's not right.Like, I don't know the numbers, but there are lots of black folks that own businesses that are in construction that are, you know, like, we don't need to perpetuate that. This is something that's so rare and unheard of, one. But, like, there's just so much beauty in. In the mundane.

Yeah. Now, that is true. Now, I do agree with that. That is a fact. I love that. And there's so many artists that, like, always make work about the mundane.The mundane. You know, we write in our artist statement. I look at the mundane.

Right, right. But it's. But can. Can we reframe that? Like, There doesn't have to be a binary, I guess, where something has to be mundane or excellent.But can we acknowledge that excellence exists in the mundane?

Yes. And just be.

Yeah, I like that.

Excellence exists in the mundane.

If you want to think about it like logically.Logically, if you are a black person and you are still alive, you are breathing, you exist in this day and age, everything that your ancestors had to have survived for you to be here, and the fact that against the will of the state and all of these systems designed to harm you as a black person, the fact that you are living, that's excellence. Like, that's something that we have to celebrate.We shouldn't have to wait for like some kind of like made up expectation to be met in order to celebrate it. I, like, I think we need to celebrate black existence. Like that's a celebration.

Yeah.

Not, not reaching some whatever and then being deemed black Excellence. Like you're, you're alive, you're here.

Yeah.

That's saying something.

And that puts so much pressure on you. The way you're putting it just like takes the pressure off and just allows us to have a good time.

Yes. Yeah, we've earned that. We've earned that momentum.

Absolutely. We have earned to have a good time. I like the mundane in excellence. Can we find the excellence in the mundane? Yeah, yeah.That's another tote bag next to our. Next to our everything is mutual aid bag.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, we have that. Yeah, don't put pressure.You know what, there needs to be more TV shows then and more art about that, I think.You know, instead of the whole like Essence, the like Ebony cover where it would be like, you know, the light skinned wife and the dark skinned husband with their kids and like one's a lawyer, one's a doctor and look at them being excellent, you know.And then there needs to be like, you know, here's just someone who they run, you know, they like teach at a school and their husband might be a doctor. I don't know. I don't know. But doesn't have to be.So, you know, like the doctors and lawyers are like the cream of the crop, you know, but there needs to be like more of Cream of the Crops.

And that's. Yeah, I like, we talk about like storytelling art wise. That's what was special about Insecure about Atlanta.

Yeah.

These were stories about relationship shit, being an 8 shit person sometimes, or all of the strange things that happen when you decide to try a different barber. You know, like, those are boring, everyday kind of things, but yet they.There's so much like comedy, like, there's so much beauty sometimes like trauma and shit that could be packed into these. These experience that are typically deemed mundane.

Sure, yeah. You know, yeah, yeah, I like it. I'm trying to think if I had anything else to say around that, but I feel like it's just.We could just go in a circle about it, be like, trying to think of, like, more like mundane examples, you know, so, listener, if you have any mundane examples, like, share them with us. Back to the care machine really quick. You know, I'm just curious, like, the idea of the care machine.How does that show up for you personally, like, in your work or daily practices? You know, is it like a. Is it like personal, political?Like both, you know, like, what does, you know, care machining, like, as, like a person look like?

Ah, yeah, yeah. I. I think that the ethos of the care machine is very much a part of how I try to navigate the world personally and politically.So I'm an abolitionist. I believe in care instead of harm and building systems, participating in systems that normalize that.And I think that abolition is about the prison industrial complex.But abolition is also, I think, when you carry Narcan on your person or if something looks off, knowing that you can stick around and make sure that somebody is safe. You know, I have like a pod of folks that I care for and that care for me. So.One of my good friends just started her MFA program and was being followed by public safety, public safety officials on campus. They asked her to prove that she's a student, unfortunately, what we're accustomed to.

Wow.

I said, hey, keep me on the phone. Who's there with you? Are. Are. Are you getting something so that you can record? Okay, you have to get off the phone now. Your phone's about to die.Call me back when you get to this place, okay? Are you safe now? Let's make a plan for tomorrow. Did you drink some water? Are you breathing right now?You know, like, I. I think there are ways that, that we check in with each other with the goal of defunding, of ending the prison industrial complex, of not having a need for prisons, but also with the goal of surviving this day and knowing that somebody that I love is safe and cared for, knowing that there are tools so that that can continue even if I'm not there in person, making sure that the people that love me can do that for me when I need it. Like, I think those are some of the Ways that care and abolition show up personally, politically and in everyday life.

If you were a antisocial person, lonely person, or don't really like people, how could you show care for others? You think?

Mm. If you are an antisocial person.

Yeah.

How can you show care for others?

Um, yeah. Cause at least how we're speaking about it, like caring for each other as people, you know, humans. So what if you don't like humans?

Yeah. Yeah. But you are a human.

Yes. But you are a human. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it depends on what your gift is and what your interest is. So that's something that I really love about time banking and care banking.So it's this concept where you can like participate in a group with other people, um, and folks make deposits and withdrawals. I've done it just with a spreadsheet before. But you have something that whatever you have to offer.So say like you're able bodied and you walk your dog already. You can walk somebody else's dog if they need it.

Okay.

That might be your offering. And then you need to take like a withdrawal or something. It might be like, hey, I, I know I'm having surgery.Like, I know I'm having my fibroids taken out. I'm not gonna feel like cooking. But I have this link for if people wanna contribute.So that food can be like sent to my house during the weeks that I'm recovering or whatever. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

You may not interact with any of those people in person, but if you have like 15 bucks that you can like drop in, that covers, you know, somebody's meal, you're caring for somebody else, you're contributing.

Yeah.

And that's like a deposit that you're making.

Yeah.And I was also thinking like somebody could do like simple manners, like hold the door open for someone or you know, like no problem and like keep it moving. Okay, that's good. Because you know there's people out here that just don't want to be bothered, but they want to do something.

Absolutely. And that's why, like it's your gift. Like, what's your gift? What's your interest? Your interest may not be interacting with people.

Yeah.

But if you're still interested in caring for people, if you are really good at proofreading, there might be something that you can edit for somebody that needs some support.

Yup. You right. You right. Yeah, I love that. That's really good. I want to like switch to like your practice a little bit more.Like in terms of your performance work, you, your performances that I've seen, They're just so elaborate. They have, you know, you have, like, bands, you have dancers. Everybody's, like, dressed in the same wardrobe.The set design, you know, like, you'll have everything is thought about. It makes me think of, like, working on a film set.

Yeah.

What is that preparation, like, for you? Are you working alone? Like, do you take time to structure it out? You know, do you have casting calls?Like, if you could just give, like, a little rundown of what that looks like in process. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're in that process with performing a piece that we've done before. Protective style, actually rehearsing and getting ready to perform that again. So it typically starts with the research.I'm typically doing extensive research as I'm creating the concept. So coming up with whatever the performance the sculpture will be depends on the medium. But it typically starts with some kind of research.And then once that gets me to the concept, it works for me to break things down into smaller pieces to execute. Right. So if I know, okay, I see the performance now, I know that I am going to need music. Like, I know music is a part of it.What instruments am I gonna need? What's what? Let me make the set list for what I know. We're gonna have to rehearse. Okay. Where's movement gonna be? How many dancers am I imagining?You know, just, like, breaking it down into smaller parts. And then literally it just goes back to kind of, like engineering. Like, then there's a Gantt chart that just. What has to get done by when.That works for me and my team, where we have, like, a bible that we can go from for where we are each week leading up to the performance, the exhibition opening, shipping the work, whatever it is. And then that's what we go back to, to check where we are anytime we're meeting or interacting with each other.

I was just thinking as you were talking. Cause I love spreadsheets and Gantt charts, and it makes me wonder, like, there needs to be like, a pool, like a shared drive of templates. Yeah.Like, okay, if I just, like, all right, so I have just, for example, with this podcast, I have my spreadsheet of all who I want, who's coming, and then, like, can move things around. What if you were like, oh, I wanna start a podcast. Like, go to the folder, the share folder. Then it would be like, guest podcast.You know, it's just like, everything can be blanked out and all that kind of stuff. Obviously, like, it's just clean. And we just all share Spreadsheet templates.

Yes, yes. And again, like, that's some of what we do already.

Yeah.

I've gotten so much advice, referrals, templates from other artists that have mentored me, artists that are peers, and I do the same thing with other folks, you know, like. And I think that's mutual aid. I think that's careful. You're saving. You're.You're giving the gift of accurate information, and you're saving someone from the time the fuck ups. The. The extra energy that could be spent on something. Like, you're.You're kind of, like, saving that and helping them get to a destination a little bit more quickly, more efficiently. That's caring.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And in your performances with the dance, do you dance on your own? Do you choreograph your own pieces?

Many of them. I do. I've also worked with really talented movement directors.

Okay.

Caitlin B. Jones is a really talented movement director that I love working with. She was working as a curator in Kansas City and is actually in Los Angeles now. I think she's so talented as a curator, as a movement director. Oh.Oh, my goodness. Her podcast and her project is called the Black Ordinary.

Oh, I love that. I need to know her.

Yeah. I'm gonna put y' all in touch. Y' all need to know each other.

Okay. Thank you.

But, yeah, yeah, I, I, I.When I collaborate with someone and there's a shared language that we can get to and where we get to use that language, I typically continue working with them.

Yeah, that makes sense. I love dance and I love to dance, but I don't. It's like a hobby, you know, it's like, not a thing that I've thought to put in my practice.But I've noticed that you have a lot of dance, so I didn't know if you were, like, a dancer if you dance on your own. You know, I was just curious about dance or, sorry, movement in your practice.

Yeah, I grew up dancing.

Okay.

Ballet modern, like, middle school, high school, and I did some dance in college, so. And, you know, I think that. That I'm so glad that I did dance at a young age.It's like engineering, where it's a way of thinking that you can reuse even if you're not in the studio or on the stage. And it's such a big part of my expression and a part of the art that has inspired me and that I'll make references to sometimes.So, like, one of my teachers danced with the Alvin Ailey Company, and I grew up seeing Alvin Ailey every year with my family.So the kind of storytelling that Alvin Ailey did, especially in Revelations, where he was using negro spirituals and using an environment, sonic building that was familiar to him and then added choreography to it, like, I just thought that was such a genius approach. And it's a lot of what I do with how I try to tell stories. I think that's a part of why dance is such a big part of my practice.But I don't call myself a dancer because I have so much respect for dancers and I'm not dancing every day, performing every day, you know, like, it's not like I was when I, when I was like in high school, but dance is definitely a big part of my practice.

Movement that's cool that you can see, like, oh, what instruments will I need? Like what movements that you could see? All those things.

I have to give myself the time and the space to think about it, picture, to receive the information. So like, whatever I'm reading, researching, or whatever, have the concept and then like translate the information into something visual.And that translation part is where I'm thinking of the instruments, the bodies, where they're situated, the color palette, the sounds, the, the things like that.And just kind of like building that into my process, knowing, hey, this is a time period where I'm focusing on that and what I want to have at the end is like this kind of list or whatever is really liberating for me.

Yeah, I love that we have like some parallels in that way. One thing in your work, you. Your work often talks about portals to other realities. It might have been in protective style.You were in an auditorium or like in an enclosed space, but there's like an outdoor piece where you're in the car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you called the car, like, I can't remember, but it was like the mothership. The mothership, but it was a car, you know.And so I just am like interested in that kind of language of like portals to other realities. Like where you'll say like portal esoterica, you know, using that kind of language.

Yeah, yeah.

To like, to talk about, like you'll use this other language that might mean like mothership is car, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I embrace a lot of lexicon that's inspired by science fiction.

Uh huh.

Speculative world building. And I like to play around with that in a humorous kind of way where.And I think that's a great example that you brought up calling a lowrider a spaceship the mothership. Because I Like to think that.

We.

Can access these other worlds, and we do it already, but it's a part of our everyday life. It's not something that has to be far away in the future or in a different place.It's something that's a part of what we already do and what we have done. That's really important for me when I think about esoterica.So I loved calling the lowrider the Mothership because it was meant to be how we're transported from this other world, this planet. Esoterica, where we're bringing a ritual that we do all the time on this planet.We're just bringing it to downtown Los Angeles, to Hauser and Worth for this day.

Yeah.

So a part of the research and conceptualizing. When I think, okay, I know that me and the band are traveling 300 light years. We're coming to the East Gallery. We gotta get there somehow.What am I gonna call the means of transportation? What should I call it? It's like, okay, well, obviously this is a mothership, but what does it look like?And I said, oh, it looks like a white lowrider. Like, this is a clean lowrider that I would've seen, like, probably one of my uncles or, like, a cousin.

Yeah.

Like, driving on a Saturday. Or where I see, like, one of my godfathers. I would see him with this car, like, at a car show. Like, that's a mothership.

Yeah.

And when I think. And I'm really inspired by, like, Parliament Funkadelic.

Yeah.

So I love to add that kind of like. Like something that's funky and, like, fly and just so much confidence. Almost flamboyant, yet beautiful and clean.Like, that's the kind of spaceship I want to travel in. And I know exactly what it looks like because I've seen it in la.

Yeah. That's luxury to me.

Yes, yes, yes.

That's, like, what I think of luxury. That's what I think about.But I also was thinking when I was seeing that, I was thinking, like, if we were to have kids, saying, you know, like, little Autumn would be like, mom, I was next door, and do you know Jerry's mom's mothership they call a car? They don't call it a mothership. Jerry, get your backpack. Get in the mothership right now.You know, like, just like these childhood versions of, you know, using that language, you know, I love. Yeah.

Because that's what's so fascinating and so cool about how kids still see the world.

Yeah.

Until that's kind of, like, eroded away by adulthood. And adults. But a kid would probably say, are they aliens? Have we been living next door to aliens this whole time? What's their home planet like?Is it cold there? You know, like, kids still do that.

Yeah, they do. Did you grow up. Did you grow up into, like, science fiction and stuff like that?

Yeah, yeah. I loved. I loved Isaac Asimov. I loved A Wrinkle in Time and all the other books in the series. But I also loved fantasy. Like, I read Tolkien.I read C.S. lewis. I loved, like, Alice in Wonderland and through the Looking Glass. I remember.I really loved I Robot and the gods themselves and, like, Fantastic Voyage, where it was basically like the magic school bus before the magic school bus, but where they struck themselves into the ship and they were traveling around a human body. Like, I absolutely loved that kind of shit growing up.

Yeah, it was all super cool. Did you. What was I going to ask? Oh, you know, so also with your work, I had put this note that autumn is a king of leisure and softness.

Ah, thank you.

Yes. Was leisure and softness always an interest of your work? Because, you know, like, now it seems like, you know, play joy.You know, these words are just, like, being used all over Instagram. Right? Like, almost to, like, a. Almost to like a. Would you please shut up?

Yes.

Almost to, like, a. Nauseam. But it's still so important.And so I feel like, you know, all of the work that, you know, that you've been showing currently, you know, like, all come back to, like, leisure, softness, rest, you know, and I. And I put, like, in luxury.Um, so, yeah, I'm just curious, like, is this something that you've always, you know, been interested in before it became popular? I feel like ever since the. Was it the Tricia Hershey book?

Yes, Trisha. Rest is resistance. Yes.

After she brought out her book, everybody and their mom was like, rest is resistance. Rest is resistance. And I'm like, trisha said that. Ah, ah, ah, ah.

Trisha said that. And she's been saying it for a minute. That's been her practice. Yeah, yeah.

She's also. Also a king of leisure and softness. Right?

Yeah.

So, yeah. I'm just curious if that's something you've always been interested in before, you know, the popularity of it.

Yeah, yeah, I have been interested in it.And I didn't always have, like, the vocabulary that we do now, self care and, you know, know the science behind it and things like that, but I knew that. I knew that rest had been criminalized.I knew that rest, as a result, is not an expectation for it's treated as a privilege for so many people of the global majority. And that always seemed really wrong at and inorganic to me. And it just felt like another attack on humanity, especially on black women's humanity.There was an exhibition I worked on a few years ago with Tahira Rashid and one of the. I was a guest curator. So she and I are both artists, but we guest curated this exhibition.And this text that we started with was actually an ordinance from the early 20th century. And I want to say it was in North Carolina, but I can, I could verify that basically black women had to prove that they were employed by somebody.Prove that you are an employee. Yeah. And if you were seen in public and if you weren't working and if you couldn't prove that you were employed, you could be arrested.

Wow.

Yeah. So that's an early example of our rest just not working. And that's something that I've heard people get wrong.Like when, when they'll first hear about the nap ministry. Maybe if Trisha's book was new to them or something. People saying like, oh, I don't even like naps or what's the point of a nap?It's, it's, it's, it doesn't mean that you're literally sleeping. Just not working.

Right, Right.

Yeah. Just not working.And it's also important for me, I take it so personally because I know what it feels like when your body is impacted, when your mind is impacted by overworking.

Yeah.

And then when that can go even further and be even more dangerous. Which is a part of what we were talking about when we talk about this black excellence thing.But where your worth, your identity is based around your work. That, that's the dangerous part.

Yeah.

That and, and, and we can see a lot of that. And that behavior can be rewarded in a lot of the environments that, that we're in. You.You know, like, I wouldn't be surprised if the same people that only have respect for someone think that they are excellent if they're a doctor or a lawyer. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rhetoric that they also validate is like, oh, I pulled an all nighter last night.

Yes, that happened. Yeah.

I've been working 60 hours this week. Like, that's not something to brag about. That's not cute at all.

It's not. Right.

And it's just personal for me because I want to be here for a long time. I have people that I love that I want to see get old. I want to get old. I want to Be here for people.In order for that to happen, I have to be healthy. And a part of that is me getting rest physically. But also I have to have, like, the emotional space sometimes to not be working.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it just feels personal. Like, I. There are too many people that.And even that I know personally that died way too young that should still be here had they not had to work so goddamn hard. And it's like, I ain't gonna help the oppressor.I ain't gonna help you kill me by working and maintaining this expectation of validation from work and how much you've worked. It just feels sick to me.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not cool at all. Yeah. Don't overwork yourself.

Mm. Mm.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's not. It's not worth it. Yeah, you'll run yourself ragged, as they say. You'll run yourself raggedy.

And we know these things. Like, our aunties, our parents, our grandmothers were telling us this.And that's why I say, like, the vocabulary might be different now, but it's the same message. It's ancient.

Yeah. We really need to start listening.

Yeah. To ourselves, too.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, ask me, like. Cause I had wanted to ask, like, a sort of a fun question.

Yes.

If you could build a beautiful mutual aid network in outer space, what's the first thing you'd include?

Ooh, okay. The first thing I'd include, like, physically, as like a tenant, as like a goal, maybe physically. Okay.So if this is a mutual aid network someplace in space, it would be great if we had someplace where we could meet. Someplace where you can get, um. Well, I think. I think physical objects, like things that people need. You wouldn't have to go to this place.Like, you don't have to go to the station, if you will. Like, it can be sent so that it can go through, like, space and time.Like, you don't have to get there physically, but if you want to roll up, you can. Because I think a part of the mutual aid would be, like, providing, like, a shared resource for when you need some in person time with somebody.Like, you can come from anywhere in the universe and you could show up to this station for a little bit of in person time, and it would only be with somebody that also wants in person time or wants to offer it.

Ooh.It makes me think of, like, in Amsterdam, the red light district, how you can go see the ladies and hit the button and the thing will pop and they'll be like, what do you want to talk About.

Yes. So I think it's a say, okay, maybe it's like that. But both people, I think you don't see the person. You, you just hear them.So you're hearing somebody else say, hey, this is what I need right now. Like, this is what I would love to get from a conversation. It could be something like, I don't need advice right now, I just need to be heard.I need to be heard for like five minutes. It could be something like that, right?

I like that.

So then the other person that shows up, they're like, hey, I got time, I got five minutes and I can listen to somebody.So it's only when both people consent, you show up, you hear the person that makes the request, but then the person that made the request will also hear the person like why they decided to roll up. But both people press the button at the same time.

I love it.

So then both people are revealed.

Yes.

Ah, we made that together.

Yeah, I love that. That's so great. That also makes me think of like when you go to confession, you know, like how you like slide those doors open.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there's somebody could be like, what is it that you want to talk about? And then you slide it back and then they go and get someone like, oh, they don't. They just want something to hear them vent.And then you go back and then they slide it open and then whoever's available to hear them vent can sit there. So if you were looking to actually give somebody advice, if you're like that kind of person, you go and like sit in the break room and wait.

Right? It's like, let me clock out. I know somebody better for this.

Yeah.

Yes. I had a piece that was kind of like that. It's traveled. It's called. There are two phone boxes, they're called care phone boxes.

Okay.

And you choose if you're going to the give some care or take some care phone.

Uh huh.

They're both pink. To take some care, you pick up the phone and you hear a message, a care message that a stranger left behind.If you wanna give some care, you pick up the phone and you leave a message. So those messages roll over to the other phone. We have a message that came from like a five year old.We have messages from elders, messages from artists, from all sorts of stuff. But like one that I really like is you're. If somebody tries to make you feel small, it's because they feel small. So you can't take that personally.Yeah, it's just like just small Statements like that. Yeah. But it. Sometimes it might hit somebody that really needed it in that moment.

Yeah. That's really good. I love that.

That should be.

Yep. Bring it back. Expose it again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In the next exhibition. Have it again or something. So by the time this conversation airs, you will be headed to Seattle, Washington.

Yeah.

For your. For the Protective Style performance at Walk the Block Artist Festival in Seattle, Washington. Yeah. I bet you're excited about it.

I can't wait. I'm so excited. I love Protective Style. I love doing that piece. We've been rehearsing, and it's gonna be a really special performance.We're so excited to be doing this in Seattle.I love the Pacific Northwest, and I love Seattle's history and the communities of folks that have been there for a while that have done such incredible work, including mutual aid. There's so many roots for that in Seattle. So I'm really excited to be spending time there and to be a part of the Walk the Block festival.It's so great. They've been putting this on for years. I think I'm going before Saul Williams, who is another artist that has so much respect for. Yeah, yeah.It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be a great performance.

I love it. So if you're in Seattle, you could just go. I will put all the details in the show notes for folks.

Amazing. Yeah. It's gonna be fun if you're in Seattle. If you're going to be in Seattle on the 27th, we'd love to see you.I love what they do even when the festival isn't happening. This location is also an art gallery and an art center, and it's all in this one neighborhood in Seattle.I think they set a really interesting precedent for what it looks like for art to be a part of community. Like, not in conversation with community, but for those to coexist. I think they do a really, really special job with it like that.I know it happens in other cities, but I would love for more folks to be doing that. To be doing that.

Yeah, yeah. You're doing work that should be modeled as well. I think, like, with. Especially with the care machine.I feel like care machines should also be replicated, you know, for other people to. To offer.

We. We. We have to destigmatize receiving care.

Yeah.

And that's why it was so important for me to make sure that the care machine looked beautiful.

Yeah.

And for us to have care services near the care machine when it's installed. So even if there's Nothing that you need from the care machine. You can get a massage, you can get a tooth, gym, you can get a facial.And getting an abortion should be as convenient as getting something from a vending machine. But there should also be just as much dignity as a spa, as a beauty salon. I think that's a big part of why those worlds come together.For me, it's convenience and dignity that we all deserve. And you should be able to choose a cute little lube container or a little mini brush and some Julie pills if you need it.There should be no shame in that.

Right. It's actually sort of cute. Right. Because the care machine is so pretty. It's like, again, that's luxury.Just like feeling, feeling good, feeling pretty. That's what I love.

And we all deserve that. Like, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a nice to have. Yeah, those are all essential. They're all equally essential.Like, and, and, and that's a part of why I was so glad that we were always able to have hair supply in the machine.Because something that really frustrates me, there are a lot of things that frustrate me about the foster care system and commercially sexually exploited children. And that's mostly black girls.

Yeah.

I don't like that. Hair care oftentimes is set aside as something that's nice to have or a reward for good behavior for girls. Like that's. That should not be the case.And even girls that aren't sexually exploited, folks that aren't in the system.

Yeah.

Sometimes like, like hair and beauty are talked about in that way. And I don't think that that's safe. I don't think there's care in that.I think that perpetuates a lot of harm that can manifest into like a lack of confidence or lower self esteem. And we don't need that. Especially when our hair is a part of our storytelling and our culture.

Like 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. That's important to me.

Yeah. Don't make it so difficult.

There's enough hard shit for real. We don't have to make getting morning after pills, a condom, edge control, a snack. None of that should be difficult too.Like, at least not on my watch. I'm not gonna contribute to those things being hard to do.

I heard that.

No, I heard that.

I heard that. Yeah.

So.

So, yeah. So tell me then about the assemblage.

Yes. Yes. So some of my early work was performance based, but also installation and sculpture. So.And I've been exploring mixed media and multidisciplinary work for a while too. So an early piece that actually has become kind of relevant recently with everybody talking about jeans and the American Eagle ad.

Yeah.

And then the dope Gap ad. So I made this piece I worked with. Right.

Gap shut that all down, didn't they? They just shut it all down. They're like, listen, enough is enough. Let me show you.

It looked so good. Like, visually, that was just a beautiful video. Everyone looked great. And there wasn't even dialogue or. Or like a monologue.Nobody said anything about, like a weird, gross double entendre about jeans or anything like that. We. We were just watching beautiful people dance and clothes.

Yup. It was really good. I will put in the show notes for the listener who's like, what are we talking about? I'll put in the show notes. Don't worry.

Yes. Highly recommend watching that.

Yeah.

So I did this piece where I collected recycled denim and all recycled pieces, also furniture and drawers.And I made a projector that played a video that I made about the history of denim and how denim has always been black in this country, in the United States. So it used to be clothing that was for utility and for work, for working outside.And enslaved people were forced to wear denim because it could deal with, like, the wear and tear of heavy labor. And also it was a way to see who was enslaved and who wasn't.Because the folks that owned slaves were wearing linen suits, petticoats, and dresses, obviously. And if you were working, you were probably wearing denim. So that carried a stigma for a while.When you fast forward to James Brown, actually he didn't allow anybody in his band to wear denim.

Oh, okay. Wow. Had no idea.

He said those were slave clothes.

Oh, okay, James. Wow. And he was right. They were at the time. Right?

Yeah, yeah.Like, if you were a certain age and in this country during a certain time period, it was probably in your recent memory to associate denim with slavery.

Wow.

So when we go to sncc, mobilizers and organizers that were trying to get folks the vote and able to vote in the South. A lot of the young people that were coming down to the south were from the Midwest, from the east coast, and these were like college kids.So they were wearing poodle skirts and like penny loafers and button ups and things like that. The communities that they were working with, many of these folks were sharecroppers. They were still wearing denim.

Okay.

So visually, there was this juxtaposition, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So the young people, they started wearing denim.

Okay.

And it demonstrated, you know, we haven't come that far from slavery. But also, this is a living playing field, a level playing field. Like, we can actually.We can be in dialogue, and this doesn't have to be another barrier, you know, like how we show up sartorially, fashion wise.

Yeah.

So that became, like, a part of the uniform and the culture of the movement. Folks would wear denim even when Dr. King was arrested. When he was arrested and he wrote his letter from a Birmingham jail. That arrest.Yeah, he was wearing dinner. Really? Yeah.

Well, I've never seen him in denim. And he.

I'll send you a picture.

Okay, cool.

I'll send you a picture. And you also see, like, these SNCC organizers and young people wearing overalls, wearing denim and, like, having their buttons.You'll see that in images from, like, the 50s and the 60s. So then after that, denim became mainstream. And a lot of folks will associate denim.If you think of American denim or whatever, you know, you might think of, I don't know, like, Brooke Shields and like, that Calvin Klein commercial or like Bruce Springsteen and those folks that were wearing denim, but it came from before that. And black people, I argue black people made denim fashionable.

Wow. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I had no idea. And so then the artwork was a assemblage of these different denim dresses, Drawers.

Like a chest of drawers, but all wrapped in and made from denim. Like, different shades of denim, different washes that I put all together on the frame once I had it.And then I built a little projector that's also all covered in denim. And then when you put your phone in it, it projected onto a wall and played this video describing where denim came from.

I love it, and I love the level of craftsmanship as well. Thank you. Salute to that, for sure.

Yeah, thanks.

Cause that's not easy. So awesome. That's really cool.

So, yeah, I've been making stuff and using objects to talk about history in a different way. I think that's really what's been consistent with my practice.There's always some piece of history that I want to amplify and tell stories about through material.

This has been another episode of nosey af. I'm your host, Stephanie Graham. What did you think about today's conversation? I would love to hear your thoughts.Head over to the nosey AF website for all the show notes related to this episode. You can also find me on Instagram at Stephanie Graham, what would you know?Or online@missgraham.com where you can sign up for my newsletter where I share exclusive updates about my studio practice as well as this podcast. Until next time, y' all stay curious and take care. Bye.