Alberto Aguilar on Making Art from Everyday Life

Gotta get up, get up Tell the whole world you will win a winner Vision of a star with a mission in the cause what you doing, how you doing?What you're doing and who you are Flex yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't wreck yourself if you know me then you know that I be knowing what's up. Hey, Stephanie.

Graham is nosy as WLPNLP Chicago 105.5 FM Lumpin radio. Hey, Chicago, hope you're enjoying your afternoon. I'm your host, Stephanie, and I'll be with you for the hour.Last month I sat down with artist and educator Alberto Aguilar inside his exhibition A Factual Account at Engage Projects. We were literally surrounded by the work everyday objects, text, sound and video.And we talked about meaning, making communication and just being present with the things around us. So today we're revisiting that space. Think of it as a little time tour. Come along and listen with me. Here's Alberto.

Welcome, Alberto. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, thank you.

This is very exciting.

You can came to the opening.

Yes, I did.

And I saw you and I said, this is the person that I would like to conduct because sometimes they do interviews with guest interviewers. And when I saw you, I said, this is the person that I would love to do an interview with here live in this space.

Oh, what a dream. Thank you so much. Well, congratulations on your exhibition. This is wonderful. A factual account.I think where I would love to start is last weekend you had your 12 foot, 10 foot ladder. 10 foot, 10 foot ladder performance.

Stick to the facts.

Yes. With Saoirse.

Yeah.

Yes. It was a. I keep saying the word thrilling performance. You all were. Can you describe it?

Yeah. This was the second iteration of this latter performance. This one was by far more successful because we did rehearsals, but the latter became.We didn't know what it was going to be about. But I think it ended up becoming, like you said, thrilling. There's another word.Like there was an aspect of magic or sleight of hand to the performance. And then there was one last thing that I keep saying and I forgot, but it was thrilling. Like there was moments of suspense. Yeah, yeah.

And how did that feel?

Acts of daring?

It was definitely daring because I feel like I was standing by Jennifer and you guys would do these things where they were pushing this ladder back and forth with each other and then they would like move it about and we were all just like over there, like, oh, my God. How did it come about?

How did you get that performance? Oh, yeah, that's a Good question, because it actually came about.Saoirse was my student in a class, and there was a ladder that was brought into our class at a certain point. And I think Saoirse first started interacting with the ladder.And whenever Sasha, somebody's doing, like, these actions, like, I want to also be part. So we both started to just, like, during studio time, we would just do things on the ladder, like make. Just do gestures on the ladder.And I think at a certain point, we realized that it could be something. And I was invited to be in a show, to do a performance, and it came right in the moment when this ladder. These ladder actions were happening.And I said, this should be the performance. So it happened at Compound Yellow first.

Why was there a ladder in the classroom?

That's a long story, but I could try to tell it, really. Okay, I will tell it because it is important. I used to teach nextdoor to Alex Bradley Cohen, who is a very close friend and past collaborator.He was excited to be teaching next door with me, and we thought that it'd be funny to play practical jokes on each of our classes.

Oh, okay.

So one time, Alex and I found a ladder out in the hallway, and we had two doors in this classroom. So we came in one door holding the ladder, and then we did a couple rounds.And I think on the third round, we left the ladder in the room and I thought that I was playing a funny joke on the. On the students, like, creating. I love creating moments of confusion because those are moments for me of learning.So we left the ladder in the classroom, opened, and Alex and I walked out. And then I come back like, I'm not kidding. It was probably like two minutes later or less.I come back into the classroom and the students are all congregated on the ladder in a jungle gym. No, they were doing, like, a parade. Like, they were praying. Oh, yeah. I think Saoirse was actually leading the prayer. So the joke was on me.Like, they. Like, I was trying to confuse them. And then I come in and there's a prayer circle around the ladder.

Wow.

And they got me. They outdid me on that one.

Yeah, they definitely did. Good call. Yeah. It's like, who do you pray to? What? The ladder. I've never heard that before. It's something new to me, but yeah. Cool.So you have this exhibition and how did this come about? You were saying these are. You hadn't been in the studio in a while. This is like, your first work back in the studio or something?

Yes, sort of. Yes. A concentrated time in the studio, which is funny, because it wasn't even that much time. It was probably like two months in the studio.It came about because Jennifer had an open slot in the gallery, and she asked me if I would take that open slot, because I think Jennifer understands that I do things. What did we say on the fly? On the fly.

We wing it.

We wing it. Like, I like doing things fast. I like the thing that it produces when you're under pressure and you have to make something.So I was given this space, and that's. And I made all of the work for that time slot.And, yeah, it was two months that I worked on all this stuff, and it started with more sculptural things. I don't know why. At the beginning, I thought that it was gonna be a show of these sculptural objects. But at a certain point, I was like.I said to myself, what's gonna be on the walls? Gotta put something on the walls.

Right.

So I started making hung things that are kind of like paintings.

Yeah. Because. Yeah, I don't think I've seen a lot of sculptural shows and think about what's on the walls.But, yeah, they don't put stuff on the walls at sculpture shows.

You got to dress the walls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, by painting it or something.

Well. Oh, you're talking about sculpture shows. I don't know. For me, I thought to make objects that would hang on the wall. I think I, I.I started with these two, and I think I, I. My wife, Sonia, bought me this. She. She works at a thrift store, and she bought me this tile here. She. She sends me pictures. Do you want this?And she sent me a box of this tile, and I just said yes. And so I mounted this stuff on a piece of plywood, and I think that I got really excited when I framed it with this blue felt.I said, these are paintings.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love the choice of the blue felt because, like, as a photographer, I'm always thinking about different ways to frame things. So was the blue felt from the thrift store, too?

No.So all this stuff is sourced from different places, but a lot of it comes from my daughter, Madeline, who works at UIC in the architecture and design department. She just. She's a hoarder. Oh, kind of. Yeah. So she brings material that they're just throwing out.So she brought a bunch of these felt strips, and she wasn't really doing with all the anything with all the stuff that she hoarded because she currently is not working in the studio. So I was like, I'm gonna use this material.

Right?

Yeah.

You spoke at your tour about having a hoarder mentality. Can you define that? What do you think that means to you?

Yeah, I would say my father was a hoarder. Like, deep down inside, he was one of those people that would just collect newspapers and collect things. And, you know, probably if it wasn't for my.My mom, the house would have. Because he has a sister who's actually in the show also. She's the one that I made the sound recordings with. She was a hoarder.Like, she had the same sensibility that my dad had. So she lived in moments, which is. It's like a farm town here in Illinois. And she had this house that was just, you know. You've seen horror shows.

Oh, yeah. I was sort of thinking. I was like, would she have been on the show Hoarders?

She would have been on the show. Oh, it was very, very bad. She would build structures around herself with magazines and newspapers, and it was not a livable space.So I think I have some of that inside of me. But at a certain point, I had to break that curse. You know, Like, I would be the person that would go in the alleys and say, look at that thing.I want it. I want. I could use that. But, like, I think at a certain point, I said to myself, I don't want this to be me.I don't want these objects to overtake me.

Right. And then something else that somebody had said, too, last week was, you know, because now these are all works. They're available for someone to take.Do you have, like, personal. Like, personal thought to them? That makes sense.

Like personal attachments.

Yeah, personal attachments.

Yeah. No, I'm fine getting rid of all of them. They're all for sale. And I would be fine if all of them were sold off. I would be perfectly fine with that.And I wouldn't miss them either. I mean, I love going. I love when somebody owns my work. And then I don't see it for 10 years, because that's more exciting than holding onto it.Because when you hold onto it, you just. You're too close to it and you can no longer see it. But when you're away from it for 10 years, it's like, it speaks to you.Yeah, it could speak to you.

And it takes up space, too.

Yeah, it takes up space. I was a painter also, and I made a lot of paintings in my life, and I didn't really sell any of them, so they ended up in my Mother's basement.And that would always. That would always bring me sadness. Just that these paintings are just all there, and I have to babysit them.

I'm sure a lot of painters could relate to that. Are they still. Are they still in a basement painting?

No, they're in my studio. I have a little loft area.

Oh, okay.

That's a storage area. So all the sign works.

What do you. What are the names of these works?

Sign. Oh, sign like objects.

Sign like objects.

Yeah. Everything is like objects. So those are sign like objects. These are painting like objects. These are sculpture like objects.That's a video like object. I think maybe not the video has a title. It's probably the only thing with an.

Actual title and with the sign like objects. These were their texts on. Can you describe them?

Yeah, they are aluminum with reflective vinyl. They're actually the signs that you see out on the streets.This company that I worked with to fabricate these actually make signs for the city of Chicago. So they're official materials with text that. It's like. I would. I would describe it as text in visual form.So the form actually describes what's happening in the image. Does that make sense? So dismembered is a good example. That's probably my favorite one because. And that one's a pair. Dismembered Remembered.But I really like dismembered because I don't know if you could tell, but it's a figure that is missing a foot. Yeah, I thought that was witty.

I thought it was witty, too, if I was to try this, because you said that these are text.

Well, I made them as text messages.

Text messages.

Yeah.

If. What's like. If I want to try that. What's like a beginning word?

I could try to make you give me a word. You can use any word. Just give me a nice, simple word. Or maybe something that reappears in your text.

Running.

That's a good one. I mean, obviously you could make a figure in running form, but there's different things you could do. Like failing, for instance. Right.Like, that was an easy one. Like, the G fails to fall within the diagonal. So I don't know. I mean, sometimes it's about. You don't want to be too obvious.

Yeah. I just wonder if, like, have you ever texted anyone back and they've been waiting? They're like, why is Alberto not texting me back?And then you get like, something like that.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because I do. I make them in real time.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the person has to wait while I make them Right. Yeah. But I also make them on notes.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I make them on notes because I don't want the person to see the little bubbles that they're being made. Like, I want to know. I want them to know that they don't have to wait till these things are made.So I'll make them on the note app on my phone, and then I'll copy and paste them onto the text.

Oh, okay. I do that with Instagram captions. Like writing notes and then copy paste it. Yeah. It's so much easier.

It's easier. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because sometimes you could lose that information, too, and you don't want to do that.

Yeah, well. Or you're, like, someplace and you're, like, looking down the whole time, and they're like, are you gonna talk to us?Because you're, like, worried about making content all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah. But you're really good at Instagram, though, speaking of content.

You think I'm good?

Yeah.

I have an approach that I take. Yeah.

Do you mind sharing it?

It's kind of like the show. I think I take on a factual account. I try to be factual with my posting on Instagram. I mean, I think lately I've been becoming more.Maybe a little more expressive and more. I give myself more permission to let my personality come out a little bit. But I try to be.I try to take a factual approach because I think that there's humor in being factual. You know, there's poetry in being factual, and I'm interested in that. I'm interested in not forcing humor and not forcing poetry.I like when it sort of naturally emerges through creating a factual account of things.

Oh, hey, here's a question. How did you get. How did you become an artist, anyway?

An artist? Yeah, how did I become an artist? I think I've always been an artist. I've always communicated in an alternative manner.When I was little, when I was just being made, when I was just developing as a person, like, I didn't talk because my parents. My mom only spoke Spanish. My father spoke English and Spanish, but he only spoke to me in English. My mother only spoke to me in Spanish.So, I mean, I imagine that I was confused by having these two languages. So supposedly I didn't talk till I was, like, five or so.

Interesting.

And then when I started talking, like, my mom said that I would speak both languages to her in Spanish and to him in English perfectly. So it might have seemed like I was confused, but I was actually registering all this information that I was. That was being Put into my brain.

Yeah.

That seems overwhelming.

It sounds like that was like when people do that with their kids, I'm like, oh, that's actually smart. Because it's so hard to like, I don't know how many people here like are on duolingo trying to get our five minutes in.

Yeah.

But like if you're a kid, it seems like so much easier, but the way that you say it, it seems really overwhelming.

Wait, wait, let me clear one thing up. They weren't doing it as a strategy, you know, like they weren't trying, they weren't trying to educate me.I think they weren't those kinds of parents do, you know, like they were just getting by and they were just like. I don't think it was a master plan. Oh yeah.

My friends said, yeah, it's a master plan. Yeah, it's a plan for them to like make sure that their kids like know this language.

Right? No, no. My, my. So my kids don't speak Spanish because my wife doesn't speak Spanish. Right. And they get mad at me that I never taught them Spanish.

Yeah.

But like it would have been too much work for me and I, and I, I don't have that kind of time.

Yeah.

You know, like, so I couldn't invest. You have to invest in the things that you're able to. And I wasn't able to teach them Spanish.It just would have taken too much time and too much effort. Does that sound lazy? No, no, that was a strategic move.

Right. You're like, I don't have time. Yeah. You just said, I don't have time for this, so I'm not gonna do it. That's comforting. As a parent, I would think.

Yeah.

Because it seems like overwhelming to be a parent and you have to teach all this stuff. But it's nice that you could say, I don't have time, so I'm not gonna do it.

Yeah, you could choose the things that you teach. There's the one downfall is that you could get kids that are resentful towards you.

You don't have that though, do you?

Yeah, I think it's part of the mix.

It's part of being a parent. It just comes with it.

Yeah. But we're still working through it.

Right.

I see the trauma that I caused.

Uh huh. Dang. Well, you know, when we had first did our recording, I asked if like your work was about family member and you're like, no.And I listened to a lot of interviews of you like to prepare for this and a lot of people would Ask that, and you would feel like, no, like you're at one point, but, like, not anymore. Like, it's, like, evolved. But people seem to always remember that about you.

Well, I think the main thing is I don't like being pigeonhole. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I. You know, like, I don't like saying, oh.I don't like when people say, oh, this is that Mexican artist, or this is that artist who makes that work about being a parent.

Yeah.

I think it's so much more complex than that. So I think that the work is about a lot of different things. So that's what it was. It was more.It's more me resisting being that person who makes parent art.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to be put in a box either. How dare they try to put you in.

No, it's a. It's. People do that because we're all trying to make sense of things in this confusing world.

Mm. Well, do you have a favorite artwork in the show?

Yes. Wait, do I?

Yeah.

I don't have a favorite work, but there's some key works that. That I think are crucial to this show.Like, for me, I really like these two, and I would say that I'm even more drawn to this one because of the color of this fake moss and also this really nice pink, red plexiglass.But I think that these I really like, and I think of them as siblings, you know, I think I like the arbitrary objects that I put on the surface and the hope that those objects create some sort of narrative, some sort of story.

Yeah.

But I don't have a favorite. I am very. Believe it or not, I'm very pleased with the show.

Looks really good.

I think the video at our side here was really pivotal because this is also Saoirse, the latter artist. This is Saoirse. We're in conversation.And I really like this work because in the video, if you ever have time to watch it, we're actually describing what's happening in the video, what. What the viewer is seeing in a very factual manner. And I.I think that this work helped me come up with the concept, with the idea, with the title of the show.

You call Saoirse a ladder artist, but you can't put her in a box.

Put the box. Yeah. No, no, no. And I was. Yeah, I was just joking.

Yeah, I know. And, you know, one thing I think about with art, like, when I was coming up, they always are like, oh, art's so precious.Like, don't touch it, you know? But I feel like with this Work. You have to touch it. Like, I think even if, like this in my house, like, I would have to raise this up.Like, I'd have to touch it so I could vacuum. Like, so it's like, you have to. I think it's cool because it makes. You have to touch art, which usually people think you should not touch it, but.And it's cool to know that this is fake moss because at your opening, people are having a conversation if it was. If, like, moss, if it lives on the wood, if it's real or not real. Like, if it's alive at that time. And so people are asking if that was alive.

I'm assuming it's fake moss. It might be real. There's like, you could look up close and it looks like it's actual moss, but it's dead moss, if anything. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. People thought it was alive still.

Like, it's definitely not alive. Which I wouldn't mind if it was alive, but I don't think it is. Yeah. But, yeah, that. That came later on the hanging string. This is like. Yeah.One of my favorite works. One of them. Because I have a bunch of them. One of my favorite works at the Art Institute of Chicago is the work by Eva Hesse.That work where it's a big. It's a. It's a big frame that's bandaged up, and then there's this giant metal hanger that comes. This giant metal loop.Semi loop that hangs off the piece.

Yeah.

Like, you could potentially. You could walk through it. And I have walked through it before. You're not supposed to because you get yelled at by the guards.But that's what I like so much about that work, that it sort of extends off the wall into our space, almost like a sculpture.

Yeah.

I've never seen that work. So that sounds said in the modern wing.

It's in the modern. Modern wing. It's currently up, so I recommend it, seeing it.

Cool.

For exhibitions, I always like having some sort of programming, some sort of performance, some sort of activation as part of the show. That's so important to me because to me, objects could be. They're dead, you know, they're like the moss. They're dead.For me, like, objects are just dead things. So I like this idea that the space is also activated. For me, that's important.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that about you. You always are. You're always doing something with, like, multiple things.Like, often when you have shows, it seems like they're like, become mini festivals, which I like.

Yeah, yeah.

And then do you think, okay, so if. Because I feel like, yeah, people have art shows and they'll have like an art talk and then that will be it.But if you were, say, if you're like an artist that is having a show, what are three things you should tell them to have to activate their space?

But the first thing that I really, really like is inviting other people to activate it, you know, because I think there's something nice about having an outside voice that responds to your work. Like, when I respond to the work, you know, I'm responding with the knowledge, the previous knowledge and history that I have with the work.But when you bring somebody else in, like, it becomes interpretive. And I. And I like that. So I would say that idea of inviting people to activate your work is always fun. So that's the first thing.Can you reiterate the question?

I still know that I wanted sort of like a guide if someone has an exhibition, like three programming ideas, I guess.

Well, this is a programming idea, like us talking in front of the work.

Yeah.

So that's always nice.

Then you said somebody to activate it.

Something to activate it. Some sort of live discussion that could also potentially include the audience. I don't want to say another one. Like I gave.I gave the tour here, but I think for the last show that I had here at Engage. Yeah, I fed people. So, like making food. So I think like some sort of food situation is nice and it just wasn't plain old food.I actually made a mole sauce with 50 ingredients that was sourced from a store down the street here. And I served that sauce that I made on one day. We invited people to come and eat here.

Okay. Yeah, that's cool.

So I think food is always a good activation.

Hey, interrupting the conversation because we have to take a break, but we will be right back.

Let's face it, we're all going to face loss one day. Be it a loved one, a job, a pet, a home, or a sense of self and security, or my keys again. But grief is going to hit us all someday.Hi, welcome to Good Grief, a podcast dedicated to demystifying and destigmatizing grief and loss with compassion and humor. I'm Nikki. I'm an end of life doula and grief coach in Columbus, Ohio.On this podcast, we will get down and dirty with all things grief related and hopefully learn a thing or two about living with loss and coping with grief and the grieving. You might laugh, you might cry, but hopefully you'll just feel a little less alone.Tune in each week to learn all about grief, meet some special guests, and learn that grief doesn't always have to suck.

You're listening to WLPN LP Chicago, 105.5 FM Lumpin radio. Let's step back into the space and back into my conversation with Alberto Aguilar.

You had said that you had maybe about two months to have the show together. And so when you don't have an exhibition you're preparing for, then how do you put boundaries?

And. Yeah, I always use boundaries, or what I call a framework, all the time.Like, I regularly use it because I feel like there's something generative about using boundaries. And it's sort of like, you know, counter or like, you know, you would think that there's something contradictory about it. Right.Like, because you think of boundaries or the framework or rules as debilitating or restricting. But I see them in the opposite way. Like, for me, the framework creates a very generative situation. It makes me very decisive.I'm very indecisive as a person. Like, I'm the person who goes to the. To a restaurant and I want to mess around. I want to play with the waiter.I want the waiter or the server to tell me what to get, you know, like. Oh, yeah, because like, I see a menu and it's just like I love going to menu. To restaurants that they have very small menus.

Yeah.

Just because it seems more decisive. But when I go to a restaurant that has so many options, it's like I don't know where to begin.I don't know what to get because I want the best experience. So sometimes I ask the server to give me that experience. And a lot, most of the times they get annoyed.

Yeah.

Because they're not there for that, you know, like, they're not. That's. That's outside of their job description. Right.

Well, it's not.

It's not. But you could argue that that it is.

Yeah.

They only get paid so much. Right. But so I'm indecisive.

Yeah.

So, like, I think that when I create these rules, that doesn't exist, you know, like, if I. If I give myself three minutes to make something, right. Like, I have to deliver that thing within three minutes, and. And it's fail proof. Right.Like, if I was making a performance that lasted, which I do all the time, which lasted three minutes and moved within this space, like, if I know that it's three minutes long, all I got to do is fill that time. And it doesn't need to be good. I just need to fill the Time.

Yeah. Have you ever not made your. Have you, like, said, I need to make something in three minutes and then just like, not do it?Because I feel like I would maybe just not do it? It's so easy to not do it when you set yourself up with the deadline.

No, because even if it's bad, it's still made. Oh, that's true. Like, I. I'm not saying that I'm. That I make the perfect three minute work.

That's true.

Like, I do it all the time, too. Like, I do this thing, for instance, in the classroom, in my class.I've been doing this for so many years, where I start the class even before the students know me. I put the timer on. On the projector. I put one of those Google timers on three minutes.And I just start walking around the room and playing with the things in the space. You know, the window shades, the chairs. I flip the chairs upside down.I just start to move around the space and I mess with the objects within the space. And sometimes I repeat those gestures.Like I'll go around the outside perimeters of the space and I'll mess around with objects and then I'll come back and I'll repeat. Which is another one of my strategies, repetition. When there's repetition, like there's sort of a rhythm that's created.So I'll repeat some of my actions. So. So, no, I mean, it's foolproof. It's not always good, but it's always made. It is always made in the end.And that work exists in people's memories, so nobody records that work. So I like that idea too, that it's a work that only exists in memory.

Yeah, that's good.

The timer goes off when the three minutes are up. I always make sure to put the volume on up loud, because then there's that little ding that happens. Yeah, and that ding becomes part of the work too.

I like that. I used to go to a gym that had a timer like that for people that were using a timer.

Yeah.

Yeah. Let's open up for questions.

Hey, Alberto.

Hi, Zach.

Hi.So you, you mentioned that a lot of the objects in these works are arbitrary, but yet there's such a strong intentionality in the way that you organize them. So I guess I'm just curious what the significance is for you to organize them in the ways that you have.

Yeah, I mean, naturally, I'm a composer of objects. I kind of have an idea of what works and what doesn't work.And even when I don't, I always Ask people, like, I'll take a picture, and I'll send a text, and I'll say, what's off? I do that a lot, actually. I like getting outside voices because I'm in the middle of it and I can't see. It's kind of like the server thing. Right.But I think naturally, I do know how to compose things, because I've been doing it for so long. But even with composing things or even with organizing things, a lot of times I use default methods.Like, I like using size as a way to organize things and all the different other possibilities. I mean, I think a good example is this sculpture in front of us, which is a horse that has a radio attached to the underbelly.It has, like, a piece of driftwood, and then in between, and then it has, like, a cat shelf, and it has the sub speakers and the little clay at the end held on by rubber bands. Like, those two things, for instance.I was just looking for something that could fill those gaps, and these were the things that I found in the studio. And I think that the books function in the same way.Like, these are the books that fit perfectly to create the tension with these bungee cords, to hold the driftwood on top and to hold the radio on the bottom. So that has to do more with, like, that arrangement has to do more with practicality. You might notice also that the books are organized by size.And although there was a lot of books to choose from, like, I'm also, of course, my choices are dictated through content. Like, I thought herbs and spices. That's nice. That's funny. That could be funny. Like cooking. What material is in this work? It referenced that.There's another book on aquarium fishes, Handbook of Tropical Aquarium Fishes. And then a book that Madeline brought into the studio, which is a McMaster book that is a. What is it? It's like a book catalog.It's a catalog to order material, right? Yeah. And I like the bold lettering. I like the color, but it all fit. It was the right books.I had a lot of books to choose from, but these are the ones that aesthetically looked interesting but also fit within that gap that was created.

Yeah.

So it's like, in some ways, I can see it, like, as aesthetic poetics, but also contextual poetics, because you're balancing context with form and practicality, and then at the same time, allowing it to exist for the audience subjectively. So, like, how do you. Sorry to ask another question, but, like, how do you, I guess, accept all of those within the context of one Work.Yeah, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's. It is a balance. Do you know, it's like you're trying to pick things that work practically. Right.But you also want to pick things that look aesthetically interesting, but you also want to pick things that could potentially have deeper meaning or implication. Yeah. And, I mean, I think one good example over here, Sonya bought me. She brought me these giant stacks of postcards from her work.

Oh, yeah.

And when I started, I knew that I wanted to incorporate postcards into these, but I had so many postcards to choose from.At a certain point, I chose these postcards, and I had no idea where they were from or what they were, but when I looked at the back of them, they were the Anne Frank house. And, like, for me, that has a lot of meaning because I read the Anne Frank diary, and, like, it just was. It was a very impactful thing in my life.So I was really excited that that could come into the work and people could potentially read meaning into that. And that's also why I list, like, for the. You might notice that in the placards here.For me, it's important to list all the material so that people can create this poetry in their own heads as they're reading the material. Like, what do these objects mean once they're placed next to one another? But it's a balance, for sure. Of all these things.

I can see, too, Heather, differing levels. Here comes Ryan within the anecdotes of each object that's selected. So, yeah, I think that gives it more life, too.

Yeah. And that's. That's the main thing. That's one very important thing. Like I said, these are all dead objects, right? Like, how do you.How do you give them a little bit of life? Do you know? And I think the biggest part is the viewer's experience. Right. Like, the viewer bringing their own thoughts to it.You know, Like, I could bring all my thoughts to it, but what truly, for me, brings them to life is when the viewer is here actively creating meaning within the works. That's kind of like the programming that I spoke of here in this space.

I love that you do that.

Well, I try.

Yeah, please.

I think at the opening, the.The postcards of Anne Frank really set me back, because to me, you know, your work, I've never really seen it be too political or overtly or very, like, political, but I think the images, to me, just, like. I don't know, like, set me back because it was just very different from you, like, from the work that I've Seen.So I literally came to this talk to hear about the postcards. So thank you for talking about them.

But.

Yeah, like, how. How do you. Like, are you okay with that? I mean, yeah, you're saying that it's.

You're.

You're welcoming people to come with their own, like, interpretation and thoughts, but I don't. Did that come across at any point, like, political also with the current immigration crisis and. Yeah. So I don't know if that came through to you.

Yeah, I think more than anything, like, maybe even more than political, I'm interested in this human connection. And, like, for me, even in reading the diary, like, there was something that I related to on a very human level. But.Yes, but, you know, like, the fact that you're right, like, I don't make overtly political work, but that's not to say that I don't. I don't have my own thoughts, my own opinions, and I also welcome those sort of readings to come through, and I'm aware that they do happen.Yeah, I don't know if that answers that question.

Anybody else? Oh, yeah, go ahead. Oh, which way are we going to go? Yeah, look, this is not actually my.

Original question, but I feel like we should address what is going on in here.

Yeah, please, the chair.

And if you can explain how that came to be. We don't have the sound on for obvious reasons right now, but there's a.

Sound component, so I think it would.

Be kind of important. Please.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a sculpture in the closet, sort of back storage space in the gallery. And, you know, like, I think when I saw that closet, like, I knew.And the closet already had the black curtains inside of it. So it was. It was a very. It's a very dramatic space. And like, for me, the idea of expanding a space like this gallery is also very interesting.You know, the idea of, like. Yeah. Opening up a space that usually is not meant as part of the exhibition space.So I did make this sculpture prior to deciding to put it in there, I made a sculpture that had light in it. It's. And so, like, where do you put this sculpture that has light in a very lit space?And it just made sense at a certain point to put it in that closet, to expand that space, but to also create a more quiet space and a more dramatic space. And. Yeah, that was the first part. The second part was, like, putting the sound works in there, which I always knew. I mean, at a certain.The sound works. Let me talk about the sound works. I Was in Phoenix, Arizona, visiting my mom over winter break. And all my family came.I drove there, but everybody left separately. Now that we have, like a family with older kids and different kinds of responsibilities, like, everybody left.So I was left in Phoenix by myself with my mom and Madeline, my daughter, calls me up and she says, you should make sound recordings. My aunt lives with my mother and she has dementia. So Madeline was like, you should make sound recordings with the Olivia.And right away, like, I was so excited about that idea, so I asked her to come outside in the backyard in the full sun, and we. We made like 32 minute, 32 minute recordings of me just trying to conjure her memory and me and, and. And some of them.It sounds like I'm being mean a little bit, like I'm teasing. But that's because she was always my. She is my favorite aunt. And like, we've always had this sort of playful banter.We also used to play with language all the time. Like, she's very much into language. She's the hoarder person that I told you about. She was very much into, like, crossword puzzles.So there's one recording where it kind of seems like I'm being mean, but I'm just kind of trying to be playful and I'm trying to conjure her memory. And there's a total of four recordings that I chose. And then I asked Madeline if she would make sound for the recordings.So they're accompanied with subtle sound. So I made those. And initially we were thinking about making a video. I was thinking about making a video with these sound recordings on them.But there came a certain point when I was hanging out in the gallery that I just knew that the sound. It would be interesting to have the sound in that little closet. Yeah. It's like a little private listening room.

Yeah.

And yeah, when. When they're on and when you're in there by them by yourself, like, I could imagine that one could really have a moment in there.I know that I had a moment in making these and I still have a moment in listening to them, but I wanted to share that moment with people. And the two things have nothing to do with each other. Right. Like that sculpture and these sound works. But I'm really much.I'm very much into this idea of collaging things to, like, putting things together that don't. That don't belong in order to create a new meaning or a new read.

Yeah.

So that's what's happening in there.

I like that you were being playful with your Honor. I don't think anybody would think that that was bad, you know?

Yeah.

When I had my Aunt Dean, before she passed, she was, like, in a coma, and I would always, like, make faces at her stuff, but you would see, like, her mouth, like, sort of smile. And, you know, my family would be like, get off her. Get away from her. I'm like, no, she likes it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's trying to bring joy to the situation, to the moment.

It's sweet.That's, like, on Instagram, they'll have, you know, emerging singers, like, go and have performances at senior homes, and they're in there with their outfits on and stuff, and they love it. So it's good. Yeah, it's good that you did that.

Well, yeah, you. I think you always have to be careful. Right. Like, with what you present or what you've shown. You have to.You have to be critical about it and ask if it's going to be read in the wrong way or if it's going to be offensive.

Right.

Like, I constantly have to do that.

Yeah.

Because I don't want to make something.

You know, that makes anybody angry.

Makes anybody angry. But just. But more than that, makes me come off as insensitive.

Yeah.

Insensitive or whatever. A problematic person.

Yeah. We had a question here. Right.

It's pretty simple. Just. I was looking at these Wiffle balls here. I'm not sure what they are. They're balls with holes in them.

Pickleballs.

Oh, they're pickleballs.

Well, they're wiffle balls, but.

But they're pickle for pickleball. Yeah. So it looks like they're not glued in there and they're just pushed in there. Is that. Is that really how you.

Yes.

So if somebody moved this, they, like, they could fall out, Right.

Okay.

Yeah. Actually, in transporting this work, like, it fell apart. Not just the pickleballs, either. Like, that whole metal frame came down.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

So if somebody bought this, then, I mean, and they fell out, they just had to just push them back in.

They could put them back in.

Okay.

Or they could keep them out if they want. But, yeah, you know, like, I think that, like, I.Early on in my work, I started to make these things that were called domestic monuments that were just these objects arranged in my home or in other people's homes of their personal belongings. And one of my big things with these objects was always that I didn't want to attach them in a permanent manner.Like, for me, it was very important that they weren't affixed, you know, that they weren't. Like, I didn't use screws or glue or anything. Like they just were self centered, sustaining, you know, that they held together in a self sustaining.

Alberto, thank you for letting me do this. Do you have anything else you think we should talk about?

Do I have anything else?

I feel like I could, you know, talk. I have other questions, but I won't, you know.

Yeah.

For another time.

We should go out in a certain way.

What do you think we should do?

I don't know. That's. That's good. See, because we're so right now. Certainty and doubt. I also like that piece. Do you get that piece?

Explain it.

Like, there's certainty.

Like it splits through. Yeah.

There's certainty which goes through on a diagonal, clearly, and without tricks. Right. But then there's doubt which meets up at the T of certainty.And there's one doubt that's read sort of left to right, and then there's one doubt that is read right to left. Right.

Yeah.

But I was playing on this idea of like, there being when. When you're doubtful. Right. Like. Like it's. It's hard to read it. It's hard to. Like there's. There's a moment of doubt that.That I created through that text where certainty doesn't have that. And I was just gonna say that, like, right now, I'm presenting you with a moment of uncertainty.

Yeah.

And like, where we don't know how we're gonna close this out or how we could close this out, but I believe that we could do it somehow. Like, how do we close this out in an interesting way? And, like, we could fail. You know, like, I created a moment where there's potential for failure.

Yeah.

Are you scared?

Yeah.

So am I. I am too.

But I think, what I think is I'm like, oh, it's like, should give each other a high five. I mean, but then I think that's not cool. Like, now it feels like it really needs to be something.

Like we need to deliver something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's like. You know, I was laughing with Sherry.I was like, she was saying everybody should look under their seat for like, like Oprah moment, you know, but if you look under there, it's not going to be anything.

Well, maybe. Maybe that's a lead. I also look for leads. You know, like, you bring up the seats. Maybe the seat is. This is the.Is the code that trade sheets, like, trade seats. Yeah. We could trade seats. We could start by trading seats.

Okay.

Oh, I'm gonna carry my seat. And I'm gonna.

You're gonna carry it?

Oh, you want to?

I thought, yeah, I can't lift stuff. I'm a lady.

I thought about. I thought about, like, trading spots, but you meant trading seats. But let's do that.

Oh, you want to trade spots? Like, now you ask me a question. But this is your show.

Yeah, no, I wasn't even thinking about that. But I could. Let's do that. Since you bring it up. Since I'm in your seat and I took on the interviewer seat, maybe that's a good idea.You crack the code. Like, I ask you a question, and.

Everybody'S like, we came to see you. We didn't come to hear this lady.

But I have just the question I want to ask you.

Oh, okay.

It involves a grocery store.

Oh, yeah.

I grew up in a grocery store.

Right.

My parents owned a grocery store that actually kind of looked like this. There was a front window, and we would see things through the window. One time I saw somebody chasing somebody with a gun out the window. And my dad.My. My dad said, get down, And I had to get down. This was on Cicero Avenue.But I guess my question to you is, I heard that you wanted to own a grocery store that was also an art space.

Yeah. You gave me the idea to make it an art space.

Oh, wait, this was my idea.

Well, I told you I wanted to own a grocery store.

Yeah.

And the grocery store was. Is on where I wanted to be is on 83rd and Stony Island. It was empty there, and it would be perfect.But then in our first conversation, you put me onto Thomas Kong, who had a grocery store and was an artist. And you were like, yeah, you can also just make it an art space. And I was like, that is so smart.Because if you think about it, when you leave a show, what if you have to go to the store, but you're at the store? You can get your almond milk here. So then I love that idea. But, you know, now they made that that specific area. Now it's a family dollar.And I hate that because there's already a dollar store, like, down the street. And then up the street, it's like, now all the dollar stores are there, but it's still a dream.

It's a dream. And it's sort of at a stand still a little bit.

Yeah. In the city, they make it hard to, like, get property. They're like, oh, this property's been stagnant. It's stagnant by, like, $100,000.So if you could pay that then you can have the building for what it's selling for, which is 10,000. It's like, okay. And then, well, maybe I could do little grocery pop ups. Would that be cool? I don't know how to dip.

Well, I hope it happens.

Thank you.

And let me know.

Thanks for the idea, too. I mean, you really did give me that idea.

Yeah, I forgot. I forgot that I gave you that idea. But I. But let me know if I could support in any way.

Oh, that's so nice. Yeah.

I feel like YouTubers.

Yeah. Right. Cool. Well, thank you all so much.

Yeah, thank you.

Oh, high five then.

High five.

Yeah.

Cool.

Thank you, guys. Thank you.

All right, y'all, thanks so much for hanging out with me this hour on Nosy AF live on Lassin Radio. I am Stephanie.Big thanks to Alberto Aguilar and engage projects for their time and generosity, as well as Ryan Harder, who did the audio for that conversation.You can find more about Alberto's work@albertoaguilar.org and catch more episodes of Nosy AF plus the rest of the Lumpin radio lineup@lumpinradio.com until next time, friends, stay nosy.

SA.